Originally Posted by missflick
Thank you, I could not have said it any better myself. I felt the same way about Belbin & Agosto's free dance last season -- "Y'know, there's some wonderful stuff going on here SO WHY DON'T YOU TWO JUST SLOW DOWN SO WE CAN ACTUALLY SEE WHAT IT IS???"
There is a HUGE difference between skating fast and doing your movements fast. If you do your choreographical movements too fast, then sure, I can see where there may be a problem. But skating too fast? You can never skate too fast. Adding speed increases difficulty and pushes it to the next level. I'm not sure how many of you in here skate, but I do, and when working on the harder triples especially, it can scare the sh*t out of you to add speed. I think you have experienced more skaters who you have wished would speed up rather than slow down the skating in their performances.
That is exactly what I meant, when I opened the discussion about Carolina's speed. I didn't mean that it shouldn't count, yes, it should, it's part of the "Skating Skills" mark there (in the component scores). She should get credit for it, the problem is she is getting too much credit !!!
The judges don't know how to use these scores, if they pick up a certain aspect of a skater's skill (like speed in this example), they reward that skater for all the other aspects, while they shouldn't.
Herios
Speed is not at all overrated. Skating fast greatly enhances the level of difficulty of the element. It also obviously looks better and contributes to both artistic and technical marks. I'm not sure if you've ever seen Fumie skate live, but I have seen her two or three times (last year and the year before) and she too is FAST. Especially into that lutz....that lutz is enormous! I hope she pulls it together because she is MUCH better than Joannie, so is Carolina.[/QUOTE]
While I agreed with your comments about speed, I completely disagree with this last sentence, particularly "so is Carolina"...
Fumie, yes she is overall better, but the "is" will turn soon into "used to be". Fumie is still a great skater, but she struggles lately. She doesn't make any progress in the technical department, and the mistakes she makes, affect the overall performance level as well (she looks worried and labouring out there, she cannot skate free).
Carolina, hhhmmm, did you actually see her performance in Dortmund, she placed 5th with ??? Well, let's get serious, that was not a top 5 performance, there were "Bambi" moments in that skate, she looked sometimes very "juniorish".
All 3 ladies behind her (Sebestyen, Suguri and yes Rochette) should've been placed higher.
I know she had a big lead after the SP, but the mistakes and her presentation were not up to that level she got credit for.
I have not seen Joannie's skate this year, but looking at the results, she must be doing something right. She has a well polished presentation, she has speed, power, height in jumps (except the lutz), she is connecting to the music... I don't know how many times you have seen her, but keep watching her, please, she will be going far! She has all it takes to get onto the world podium!
Herios
Is the reason SPEED or SPEEDY ?
Quote: Fumie, yes she is overall better, but the "is" will turn soon into "used to be". Fumie is still a great skater, but she struggles lately. She doesn't make any progress in the technical department, and the mistakes she makes, affect the overall performance level as well (she looks worried and labouring out there, she cannot skate free).
Hello? How long have you been into skating? Fumie always starts her seasons off in a crappy way (other than last year when she won GPF, beating Sasha, and then finished crappy at Worlds). I wouldn't say she's transitioning into a used to be good skater. Even an entire off year or two doesn't mean she's gone. Yes, when Fumie makes mistakes, it can get messy, I agree with you on that. I wouldn't count her out, a top ten finish at worlds isn't a bad thing. Certainly better than these Canadian girls that this board seems to love....
Um, no. If that's what you think of her jumps, then I presume you have not see her skate.
1. I have been in this sport, let me see......Does Ondrej Nepela, Irina Rodnina, Ludmila Pachomova or Gabriele Seyfert say something ??Quote: Fumie, yes she is overall better, but the "is" will turn soon into "used to be". Fumie is still a great skater, but she struggles lately. She doesn't make any progress in the technical department, and the mistakes she makes, affect the overall performance level as well (she looks worried and labouring out there, she cannot skate free).
Hello? How long have you been into skating? Fumie always starts her seasons off in a crappy way (other than last year when she won GPF, beating Sasha, and then finished crappy at Worlds). I wouldn't say she's transitioning into a used to be good skater. Even an entire off year or two doesn't mean she's gone. Yes, when Fumie makes mistakes, it can get messy, I agree with you on that. I wouldn't count her out, a top ten finish at worlds isn't a bad thing. Certainly better than these Canadian girls that this board seems to love....
OK, that long
2. You are misreading my statements, I said Fumie will become "used to be a better skater than Joannie Rochette", that doesn't mean I am writing off Fumie, not at all, rather that Joannie Rochette is catching up on her.
Herios
I suppose.....both!Is the reason SPEED or SPEEDY ?
i agree about Kostner at Worlds last year. i remember thinking even at the time that she deserved to be lower than at least 2 if not all of those 3 ladies you mentioned. but oh well...While I agreed with your comments about speed, I completely disagree with this last sentence, particularly "so is Carolina"...
Fumie, yes she is overall better, but the "is" will turn soon into "used to be". Fumie is still a great skater, but she struggles lately. She doesn't make any progress in the technical department, and the mistakes she makes, affect the overall performance level as well (she looks worried and labouring out there, she cannot skate free).
Carolina, hhhmmm, did you actually see her performance in Dortmund, she placed 5th with ??? Well, let's get serious, that was not a top 5 performance, there were "Bambi" moments in that skate, she looked sometimes very "juniorish".
All 3 ladies behind her (Sebestyen, Suguri and yes Rochette) should've been placed higher.
I know she had a big lead after the SP, but the mistakes and her presentation were not up to that level she got credit for.
I have not seen Joannie's skate this year, but looking at the results, she must be doing something right. She has a well polished presentation, she has speed, power, height in jumps (except the lutz), she is connecting to the music... I don't know how many times you have seen her, but keep watching her, please, she will be going far! She has all it takes to get onto the world podium!
Herios
Quote:
Um, no. If that's what you think of her jumps, then I presume you have not see her skate.
I have seen her skate. She jumps like Robinson, especially her lutz. Not a good thing.
I am happy that Joannie won her first GP event and has qualfied for the GPF. Our Canadian ladies are stepping on to the plate. If they continue to improve, we may be able to get 3 spots for Olympics and Worlds next year. Rochette, imo, if she skates like she did at TEB, will be on the podium at Worlds.
In terms of comparing her to Jen Robinson (who I like as a skater) in terms of jumps, since her technique is lot better and she doesn't double foot her jumps. Jen represented the country quite well, and although she didn't accomplish what she wanted internationally, took the heat off the younger skaters to develop at their own pace. All I know that at Nats, the battle in ladies will be fierce as Cynthia and Joannie are vying for the top spot and so many contending for the bronze.
Fumie is struggling this season and if she doesn't do well at her nationals, she isn't going to Worlds. There is a battle between Arakawa, Onda, Ando and her for the 3 spots.
I think the ladies program in Canada has finally turned the corner.
Lise
I have seen her skate. She jumps like Robinson, especially her lutz. Not a good thing.[/QUOTE]
That is completely false. I conclude that you have not seen them. End of debate.
Herios
I would not count out Yukina Ota. She struggled at Skate America, but she is very unpredictable and a beautiful skater altogether. On a good day, she can rise up to the occassion and create havoc with the other favourites's chances.
Herios
I have not seen any skating at all yet this season so cannot comment on who is better than whom at the moment so the following are simply some comments based on my experience and opinions.
Speed is a very important factor to any skater but when high speed is used to disguse bad technique or a lack of choreogrphical difficulty then it becomes over-rated. Ice-dancers in particular tend to be guilty of this, for example FP&M, particularly Maurizio skated fast programs which tended to over awe the untrained eye and make their dances look more difficult than they actually were. Also Chait & Shaknovsky have often looked wild and uncontrolled when skating at their usual break-neck speed.
On the other hand when the speed is controlled it is a joy to watch a skater. The best example of this I can thin of at the moment is Alexander Abt, particularly his Armenian Melodies SP. I saw this live and I was awestruck by the speed and the sheer effortlessness by which he generated it. Never slowed down into jumps and carried the speed through the jump well to give beautiful deep running edges out of the jumps. And the circular step sequence, mostly fabulous edge work ,was so fast but clean and sharp.
I have also seen Corolina Kostner live a couple of times and while I agree that in some ways she is 'over-rated' by commentators and judges, I tend to agree with the general sentiment that she is a very talented skater with wonderful technique and great speed and the potential to be a great skater and possibly a champion of the future. In some ways she reminds me a bit of Urmanov. He had brilliant technique and when he was on form he was an amazing skater, unfortunately he didn't seem to be able to rescue jumps if his technique was slightly off which lead to inconsistancies and I think Carolina is similar. Also she is very young, just 17 and as such one should not expect that her skating would be very mature, very few skaters have mature programs or presentation at that age. Irina's skating did not mature until she was 19/20, Michelle's not until she was 16/17, Fumie, Susanna Poykio, Sokolova etc all in late teens, early twenties before their skating really matured.
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