COC:QUESTION, possible spoiler if nobody has seen it.

Everyone says Irina is unbeatable this season and will be handed the World Champion in Russia. They say all she need to do is show.
My question? Was she overmakred at COC? It seems she skated well, but not as her scores appear. Could someone please give me more information on how she got so high scores?
I do feel she won!

I don't think so. Irina Slutskaya hit all of her triple jumps except for one which she doubled. She also had great artistry doing her Biellman spins. She also landed a 3-jump combination. I also heard from Peter Carruthers that she was doing a triple lutz-triple toe-triple loop combination in practice. When she did it in practice Peter said "wow". Irina heard him and said "That wasn't practiced that was planned."

Possibly, something to look forward in the future :think:

How cute of Irina. :agree:
I think she is the best of the ladies right now.

SailorGalaxia518 said:

I don't think so. Irina Slutskaya hit all of her triple jumps except for one which she doubled. She also had great artistry doing her Biellman spins.

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The jumps, the jumps are the best thing about her skating. If you want to see acrobatic artistry, checkout Midnight Sun on BRAVO channel. Cirque du Soleil is what it's all about.

I'm not the only one who does not see artistry in Irina's skating and I am not afraid to say that. I've been around ballet and dance too long. If you noticed her spirals are being held by the hand this year. This is a smart move to hide her legs which are not designed to stretch out a real spiral. She does have a great back bend to move her body acrobaticlly.

She will do well in the technical because of the jumps and she does do some footwork. There is little time for transitions because her program is so overloaded with tricks. But this is me just sounding off, I will still bet she wins.

Joe

Maybe it's because she's not skating to one of the warhorses, I paid more attention to Irina's skating last night. It really struck me that she must be trying for every point she could think of for COP because the routine looked busy, not musical at all. Her jumps were wonderful to watch, but somehow, I didn't get the feeling she was interpreting or even dancing to the music at any time. (JMHO)

I was never an Irina fan but I actually like her skating this year. She doesn't have the natural leg extension that the other ladies do, but she works with what she has. I thought the program was great b/c it emphasized what Irina is great at which is speed, interesting footwork performed on on foot (not like that two foot side to side turn and dance that every other lady does) and great spins that are fast and centered with lots of position changes (that layback position is fantastic). She doesn't just skate crossovers like almost every other skater out there and she has lots of energy. Even though I thought she overused the Bielmann position, it's a lot better for her to do a spiral in that position than to do a traditional spiral b/c she does not have a strong traditional spiral. In addition to all of the transistions, Irina also has great, high jumps. If she can hit at Worlds, no doubt she will be tough to beat. COP really benefits a skater like Irina who might lose out subjectively to Michelle or Sasha b/c she doesn't have the "look" b/c now the judges are looking at individual elements and skating ability and Irina has those in spades.

I think Irina's program is COP friendly. She has difficult spins, spirals, footwork, and jumps. Her jumps are the highlight of her skating, and some of her spins too. She is not in the same class artistically as Michelle, and she does not have the kind of extensions Sasha has, but she has enough material to win. The gold does not always go to the most 'artistic' skater, but to one that earns the most points. It does not necessarily mean she will win at worlds. It will depend on how everyone skates. The competition will be much tougher in Moscow. She has not been tested against Michelle, Sasha, and Shizuka. She beat Viktoria, Joannie, and Miki. IMO her marks were justifiable in this competition (COC) but they may not hold up against the big 3. Her advantage is in the jumps, and the home crowd which may inspire her.

Vash

I love Irina dearly but no body is unbeatable and I bet those who think she is unbeatable will get a reality check this week if Arakawa places ahead of her at 'Cup of Russia'. I'm not saying Arakawa is going to win this competition hands down but she is about the only skater who can top a 6 triple Slutskaya at cor. Slutskaya better not double any jumps at COR because she can not afford to.
Even if Slutskaya beats Arakawa at COR, it doesn't mean nothing because its not the world championships.. But we skating fans will get a glance as to how Irina will use the audience to win or to self-destruct her self.

I agree with Joe and Soogar that Irina's artistry is not number. Spades doesn't have the emotion as some of her programs in the past. It does not leave me smiling as Don Quioxte did nor does it have the drama as Tosca. However it is perfect for COP's. It certainly shows her strength, the Biellman position.

Fossi said:

Everyone says Irina is unbeatable this season and will be handed the World Champion in Russia. They say all she need to do is show.

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Um? Who has said this, exactly? I haven't had the impression that Irina is considered a top contender for a medal at all at Worlds, let alone the gold. Personally, I love Irina and was thrilled she won CoC, and would be quite happy if she were to medal at Worlds ... I just haven't been aware of anyone saying she is "unbeatable" since the 2000-01 season.

Music

I'm just so, so, so pleased that she isn't using music that I've heard a billion times before.
Linny

You can't really compare scores across competitions and even less across seasons, but just for comparison . . .

Arakawa's total for both segments at NHK this year was higher than Slutskaya's at Cup of China, and Ando's NHK long program score was higher than Slutskaya's long.

Also Cohen (regular season comps) and Suguri (GPF) had totals that were considerably higher last year -- by this year's standards they might get somewhat lower component scores but could get a little more for elements with the revised jump values and three combos/sequences allowed now.

Kwan should also be able to score better with good performances and enough level 2 if not level 3 elements.

Irina is one of my favourtie skaters but I am the first to admit that artistry is not her strong point. She has neither the extension of Sasha nor the elegance of a skater like Jen Robinson but she is very clued in and has a great team behind her. Both herself and her team recognise her weakness and a lot of her choreography is designed to hide them and emphasise her strengths. Even her costumes play an important role.

IMO one of her most artistic programmes was her Appassionata SP from a few seasons ago. Everything about it was perfect, right down to the floaty costume skirt which made her look taller, slimmer and gave her a more elegant line. Her hand and arm movements in that programme were more balletic than I have seen from her and helped improved her line.
Again her Carmen costume gave the impression of longer legs and a more elegant silouhette thanks to clever detailing.

When she is not skating a gentle balletic program her costumes are not as important, as in her usual programs it is the dynamic choreography that is emphasised. The difficult footwork, the difficult jump entries and combinations, the difficult spins etc and of course her dynamic personality are what is on show.

What I admire most about Irina is her ability to turn her hand to almost anything and pull it off. Knowing what suits your style and how to adapt something to your style are very important attributes in a skater IMO

Ditto to all comments. I think that Irina is a very ''agressive'' skater and has shown a great deal of athletism over the past few years. I like her style and how she presents herself, you can see she always skate with a lot of emotions. The only thing I would like to see from here, is more variety in her combination spins.

I haven't seen anyone claim that Irina was just going to walk away with worlds gold except the paranoid anti-Russian contingent who are wuz-robbing months before the competition takes place. If you look at the descriptions of the marks her program is very COP friendly. When I tried scoring her, I actually ended up with slightly higher component marks and a slightly lower element mark, but the total score was really close to what the judges gave.

tazban01 said:

...the paranoid anti-Russian contingent who are wuz-robbing months before the competition takes place.

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I love that quote, LOL. I'm glad to see you posting, Tazban.

Mathman

While I definitely think Irina deserved to win at COC, I wasn't overwhelmed by her program in the big picture sense. Actually, I'm starting to see some things that have me wondering just how good a system COP is going to be.
Using Irina as an example ... she did quite a few things to rack up the points, but I did not find that they blended into an especially aesthetic program.
I know the Bielman spins require great flexibility in the back, but I just don't see the beauty in them ... not that spirals are required to be beautiful. And the fact that she did them several times seemed a bit much to me. Her jumps are wonderful and I did think her footwork was good though.
What I hope does not happen is that you have skaters packing programs with all these specific big point-getter moves ... but not having a program that flows nicely. I'd rather see a little less in a program, in order to get a more cohesive piece of work. I'm probably not explaining myself very well ... I did appreciate Irina's effort ... she has been through a great deal and it says something for her love of this sport to fight so hard to be able to compete in it again.

WARNING: Long Annoying Post

Joesitz said:

I'm not the only one who does not see artistry in Irina's skating and I am not afraid to say that. I've been around ballet and dance too long. If you noticed her spirals are being held by the hand this year. This is a smart move to hide her legs which are not designed to stretch out a real spiral. She does have a great back bend to move her body acrobaticlly.

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I think it depends on what one's opinion is of "artistry" is in skating. From what you've said, you tend to equate it with ballet or lyrical modern dance. But in both contemporary ballet and modern dance since its inception, all kinds of movement and styles of choreography have come under the definition of artistry. Elizibeth Streb's choreography is so athletic as to include no ballet or modern based movement at all, yet I would certainly call it both art and dance. I'd also call Cirque du Soleil art. To me it's like trying to define painting or sculpture as art according to the Greek and Renassaince masters. Obviously, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Of course philosophers have been arguing for thousands of years about what constitutes art, so somehow I doubt we'll figure out on GS. Anyway, one of the things I like about the COP is that it takes "artistry" out of the judging. The component scores are broken down into specifics that can apply to any style, even what some people might see as "acrobatics."

Under the COP, I think a skater with a style like Tonya Harding can do just as well as a skater with a style (not necessarily technique) like Oksana Baiul, as long as the technical content and component abilities for each skater are comparable. I think this is a great thing. It gives muscular athletic skaters the same chance as willowy lyrical skaters, which I think is not only more fair, but also more enjoyable, at least for me. I think the COP does this as well as can be expected given the inevitable subjective nature of judges' reactions to various skaters' styles of movement and types of choreography.

As I've said before, I think Irina has the most expressive back and arms in ladies skating. This drives many skating fans nuts , but that's how I see it. But with the COP, it doesn't (or shouldn't) matter if a judge feels that way, or on the other hand, doesn't like spirals done with the skater holding the free-leg skate. At COC, Irina's spiral sequence received a Level 3 score, which was only given out twice during last year's GP series: Once to Sasha during the SP at Trophee Lalique, which had been changed from her previous spiral sequence to include a change-edge manuever; and Shizuka during the GPF FP, when she too had changed her previous spiral sequence to include a change-edge move, even though Shizuka used skate-hold Beillman positions a la Irina.

For Irina's spiral sequence at COC, she did a change-edge on the first part (a FI-OE spiral), then, without stroking, changed to a BIE spiral. So it would seem that while the COP does consider amplitude of the free leg important for a Level 2, even if the leg is in the Biellmann position and held by the skate, apparently the crucial element in raising the spiral sequence to a Level 3 is speed and edging combined with the elements needed for a Level 2.

As for choreography and other component scores, I don't know that Irina was super-rewarded for her program, even though I agree with her win. Her Total Combined Score was 177. Last fall, Sasha scored a Total Combined Score of 197 for SA, SC, and TL. Obviously we can't make a direct comparison because of changes in the COP; better understanding on the part of the judges of how to evaluate the component elements; and I believe the technical specialists are doing a better job of identifying elements accurately. My point is, until the COP has been solid and in place for several years, I don't think we will be able to compare scores for individual skaters or between different skaters from one year to the next.

But if we do want to talk about artistry, I think Irina has an athletic artistry much the way Elvis Stojko did with his skating based primarily on martial arts. Sure, some programs are more successful than others, but the same goes for skaters of all styles.

Of course it would help if we had a definition for artistry. Dictionary.com defines "artistry" in terms of something that is artistic, so I went to artist. Here are its three definitions:

1. Artist
a. One, such as a painter, sculptor, or writer, who is able by virtue of imagination and talent or skill to create works of aesthetic value, especially in the fine arts.
b. A person whose work shows exceptional creative ability or skill: You are an artist in the kitchen.
c. One, such as an actor or singer, who works in the performing arts.
d. One who is adept at an activity, especially one involving trickery or deceit: a con artist.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

2. Artist
a. One who practices some mechanic art or craft; an artisan. [Obs.]
b. One who professes and practices an art in which science and taste preside over the manual execution.
Note: The term is particularly applied to painters, sculptors, musicians, engravers, and architects. --Elmes.
c. One who shows trained skill or rare taste in any manual art or occupation. --Pope.
d. An artful person; a schemer. [Obs.]
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

3. Artist
A person whose creative work shows sensitivity and imagination.

I guess we can each take our pick.:banging:

Finally, I think defining skating artistry according to ballet and dance can put one in the difficult position of having to agree that Douglas Dunn dancing nude on Wall Street is included in the standard for artistry in figure skating. Of course I think using dance as a standard for one's preferences in skaters is totally groovy. I just don't agree with using dance as a standard for judging skaters. JMO.
Rgirl

Rgirl,

Great post. Irina is not the typical graceful, balletic lady skater. She has her own style, like Midori Ito or Tonya Harding. She uses her strengths well. She does not try to be Michelle or Sasha, and she is an original, creative artist. Many of her moves are original moves. Her skating is not beautiful, but it is exciting, powerful, energizing, and enjoyable. In the past people complained when she got higher marks than Michelle, but the COP defines and tells what elements gave her the higher marks. In a more subjective system, someone that believes that lady skaters must have great extensions and elegance, would not rank Irina very high, except in the jump department. I don't particularly like her LP music, but it suits her and she makes full use of her strengths. IMO she is getting the credit she has deserved all along. That does not necessarily mean she will beat Michelle or Sasha or Shizuka at worlds. Since I have not seen Michelle's or Sasha's programs at this point in time, it is impossible to make a comparison. However, she is definitely in the mix for the world title at this point.

Vash

I have thought for years that Irina would need to have music/programmes that really fit to her own bubbly, smiling and happy looking personality.

About Worlds 2005, I believe that Irina has great chances to win. The competition is on her home-turf, and that combined with the reputation counts a lot in skating, however international the judges might be...

Marjaana