Michelle Kwan - better than ever?
- Thread starter Taan
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Personally, I don't think she is stagnant or regressing. I think she is still experimenting...one of these years, she is going to 
us. I hope it will be at the right time...the Olympics....
Even if it does not happen, she has done well and should be proud of herself.
us. I hope it will be at the right time...the Olympics....Even if it does not happen, she has done well and should be proud of herself.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
There are four big contenders for gold in Moscow. Unfortunately, one of them will not make the podium. Maybe we should stop worrying about the forKwans and the nonKwans and let's see how she's doing at Nationals.
Joe
Joe
Joesitz said:
I don't think the original post is worrying about the "forKwans" or the "nonKwans" but more about Kwan's progression or regression in the sport.
Anyway, I think she is progressing athletically but regressing somewhat artistically these last few years, though I still like her skating and spunk.
I don't think Kwan is better than she used to be. I havne't seen her 3/3 in awhile, but it's rumored she has one. It's hard to say where she is. She looked strong at Campbells.
If anyone is at risk of being left off the podium at Worlds right now, I'll have to say it might be Sasha. She is having a horrible season. Her worst in years. I think Cohen has taken a step, make that TWO steps back this season.
I think Irina is getting better too. Nowhere near top shape, but looking like the same old Irina and landing her usual 5-6 triples per program. Someone mentioned that Irina has never landed a 7 triple program before. I never knew that!
Shizuka isn't doing as well this season either.
Worlds is anyone's guess. Who knows? Maybe Jenny Kirk will win it all.
If anyone is at risk of being left off the podium at Worlds right now, I'll have to say it might be Sasha. She is having a horrible season. Her worst in years. I think Cohen has taken a step, make that TWO steps back this season.
I think Irina is getting better too. Nowhere near top shape, but looking like the same old Irina and landing her usual 5-6 triples per program. Someone mentioned that Irina has never landed a 7 triple program before. I never knew that!
Shizuka isn't doing as well this season either.
Worlds is anyone's guess. Who knows? Maybe Jenny Kirk will win it all.
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2003
Campbells was her best program debut in a long time. She shows more emotion on the ice now and her skating now has an uplifting feel. Her programs are enjoyable. I would like to see a triple-triple again. She has stepped up to the plate before at the 00 and 01 Worlds. I would also like to see improvement in the spins.
It is a shame that over the years people criticized her for picking music and not connecting with the audience. She has changed that around and now she is being criticized for doing so. I guess the lesson is you can't please everybody.
She is still my favorite skater.
It is a shame that over the years people criticized her for picking music and not connecting with the audience. She has changed that around and now she is being criticized for doing so. I guess the lesson is you can't please everybody.
She is still my favorite skater.
Michelle Kwan has....
Over the years, Michelle Kwan's career has gone through phases which can be noted in hindsight. The pre-1996 years described as a jumping bean. The Lori Nichol/Frank Carrol development into World Champion/perennial contender between 1996 and 2001. Now there is the post-Frank phase, the Scott Williams phase and the Arutunian phase.
She has changed over the years, and is the skater she has become to this point. In most ways she is a better skater and a great professional/icon skater. No lack of a triple jump revolution can detract from this quality she shows most of the time.
My personal favorite phase is 1998-2001 when she and Lori went to town in all the short, long and exhibition numbers. She was truly great during this period.
Over the years, Michelle Kwan's career has gone through phases which can be noted in hindsight. The pre-1996 years described as a jumping bean. The Lori Nichol/Frank Carrol development into World Champion/perennial contender between 1996 and 2001. Now there is the post-Frank phase, the Scott Williams phase and the Arutunian phase.
She has changed over the years, and is the skater she has become to this point. In most ways she is a better skater and a great professional/icon skater. No lack of a triple jump revolution can detract from this quality she shows most of the time.
My personal favorite phase is 1998-2001 when she and Lori went to town in all the short, long and exhibition numbers. She was truly great during this period.
While her programs may not be as good as the 96 - 01 era, certain parts of her skating certainly are. Her speed is way better and if you go back to 98 and look at her jumps, then go watch Campbells or 04 Worlds, her jumps have improved beyond all recognition. Higher, faster and this was picked up on by the Eurosport commentators at Worlds who were just awed by her triple flip and sal in particular, saying she'd never jumped so high.
I'm looking forward to finally seeing some new spins at Nationals or Worlds which would be nice.
But to say she's not improved at all and is just stagnating is plain wrong IMO when the evidence to the contrary is clear for all to see.
I'm looking forward to finally seeing some new spins at Nationals or Worlds which would be nice.
But to say she's not improved at all and is just stagnating is plain wrong IMO when the evidence to the contrary is clear for all to see.
Michelle
Are we forgetting skating has changed with COP. I think Michelle has improved in many areas and is trying to comply with the tricks of COP. IMO most of the skaters have not improved in quality skating . I watch tricks and underroated jumps which for the most part are not being given deductions. If a skater can grow a blade out of the top of their head or have their leg on the ceiling or look like a doughnut and lots of tricks the points are there. Im not impressed with any of the skaters at this point. I think COP has taken a lot of the quality and style of the skaters out of their skating to comply with Trick Skating as I call it now. I dont believe for a moment the judging will be any different then in the past as noticed in marks being given at recent comps. When a skater can fall 3 times and get the marks Sasha got we have a problem. Im not blaming Sasha its not her fault but her marks and points have been inflated many times and that takes away from the integrity of the sport. Its also not only Sasha.My bet if Sasha ever skates a clean program WALLA she wins no matter who skates. Im afraid the ISU will do skating in because the MA and Pa fans are not as stupid as Speedy thinks. I love the sport but fear its demise.
Are we forgetting skating has changed with COP. I think Michelle has improved in many areas and is trying to comply with the tricks of COP. IMO most of the skaters have not improved in quality skating . I watch tricks and underroated jumps which for the most part are not being given deductions. If a skater can grow a blade out of the top of their head or have their leg on the ceiling or look like a doughnut and lots of tricks the points are there. Im not impressed with any of the skaters at this point. I think COP has taken a lot of the quality and style of the skaters out of their skating to comply with Trick Skating as I call it now. I dont believe for a moment the judging will be any different then in the past as noticed in marks being given at recent comps. When a skater can fall 3 times and get the marks Sasha got we have a problem. Im not blaming Sasha its not her fault but her marks and points have been inflated many times and that takes away from the integrity of the sport. Its also not only Sasha.My bet if Sasha ever skates a clean program WALLA she wins no matter who skates. Im afraid the ISU will do skating in because the MA and Pa fans are not as stupid as Speedy thinks. I love the sport but fear its demise.
The 6.0 system was used at Marshall's last year, not the Code of points. (I think that is the case this year as well). I can't see how she shouldn't have been placed last or second to last. This holding up is almost ridiculous. You can even make the case that she deserved 4th place at 2003 Nats.
Back on topic...MK may have improved on little things here and there, but IMO overall she really isn't any better than she was when I first saw her (or I don't notice a substantial difference). It'll be interesting to see her at Nationals and Worlds and see what the Bolero program has become.
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- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
Red Dog said:
I somewhat agree with this. The last big improvement in Michelle was in 1996 when she went from being a little girl to a young 'lady' on ice.
I still prefer her programs from 1996-2001 because of the choreography and the completeness throughout the programs (not just one or two footwork sequences, as in her recent programs). Her newer programs seem somewhat empty by comparison, but her passion and presence are better than ever.
I see some improvement in the jumps and spins this year. IMO the reason we see only small improvements in Michelle's skating is that she has been so good for so long, since 1996 (IMO in 1996 we saw the first big improvement, but she was not quite there until 1997 with Taj Mahal). Her skating skills have always been great. It seems she never went for the big 3-3 combinations (and it may have cost her the Olympic titles in 1998 and 2002). Instead, after 1997 she worked on finer things like spinning in both directions, bringing back the Charlotte (not many others were doing it), etc.
May be with 'Bolero' and the COP we will see the next big jump in Michelle's skating career. It is hard to improve upon greatness.
Vash
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2003
i think she hasn't improved in the choreography, artistic aspect... and find her a bit less interesting then a few years ago.. although i wouldn't count her out just yet.
Joesitz said:
Isn't it great that we have 4 contenders for the Ladies World Title? For the most part, it has been only 2 contenders. From when I first watched figure skating it was Kwan vs. Lu, then Kwan vs. Lipinski, then Kwan vs. Slutskaya. I consider Butryskaya and Hughes flukes in that they were surprise winners. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if any of the top 4 ladies in the World win. :yes:
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Does Michelle or any skater, for that matter, actually do the choreography. I know they contribute to it but I think in the last analysis, it is the choreographer who lays out the program, takes the skater's input and then the choreographer will complete the routine. That sounds like I am making easy of this but it does take a lot of work. My point on the choreography is the choreographer and not the skater. George Ballanchine often said that the dancers give me the way to the ballet. Morozov did MK's DC Worlds win. Should we not give him credit?gracefulswan said:
After 6 Worlds win what should the improvement have been? How has any skater improved in presentation except for Ando and Goebel? I contend that skaters have not improved in presentation since they made themselve known. Their style has been set in stone. Like it or not.
I know in the CoP, choreography is part of the PCS. I don't really agree with this because skaters without the means to hire top choreographers are at a disadvantage.
Bruin - Yeah, there are four and one will go medaless, and then there is Joannie Rochette.
Joe
ITA. Pre the split from Lori Nichol, Lori's choices of music, in general, I felt both pushed Michelle to work beyond her natural comfort zone and also skate some truly remarkable choreography to some truly amazing music. Even though I didn't feel Michelle's artistry and technique, aside from great jump consistency, was up to most of Lori's programs -- I loved Michelle's skating in "Rush," but that was done by Chris Dean -- I felt Michelle's artistry and technique would the level Lori had set for her.ritymeez said:.....Anyway, I think she is progressing athletically but regressing somewhat artistically these last few years, though I still like her skating and spunk.
At '03 Nationals, I started to see a whole new approach to artistry and technical improvements in her skating that had me pumping my fist saying "YES!!!" When she repeated it and even improved on it at '03 Worlds, I knew Nats had not been a one time magic performance. I wasn't thrilled with the music choices, but I figured "One step [or should I say bracket?] at a time."
So now I see Michelle skating the way I'd always hoped she would skate, but the music is like powdered milk and except for the "Big O" footwork sequence, I haven't seen artistic growth throughout the program. It's difficult to assess because the only competitions I've seen her do since 2002 that seem really meaningful to her are Nats and Worlds. She does her duty at the cheesefests, but let's face it, the competitions just don't have the same intensity.
I'm looking forward to seeing what Michelle pulls herself up to for the Olympics and even more interested to see how she evolves after the Olympics. Just as a comparison, Dorothy Hamill didn't become a "I can't take my eyes off her; I'm glued to my seat" skater until about 10 years after she won her OGM. Bottom line is I hope Michelle has a decades long career, in whatever capacity, because I think she has much greater depths within her skating to show us that we've seen thus far -- and thus far has been real darn great.
Rgirl
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
Joesitz said:
I think you meant 5 worlds (she has not won the 6th world title yet).
I have to disagree with you on the choreography part. No choreographer forces a skater to adopt a certain choreography (unless he/she is also a coach). Michelle did much better artistically when Lori Nichol choreographed her numbers. They were interesting to watch. Now she is going from one jump to the next. We have to wait for 3 minutes before watching footwork. May be that won her the world titles, but to improve as a skater I would like to see something new/more difficult from her.
Vash
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