Michelle Kwan - better than ever? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Michelle Kwan - better than ever?

lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
She's improved a lot in her skating but her programs have not. That's basically it. Really look at her skating in 96. It was that program and her portrayal of Salome that won the judges over.
 
S

SkateFan4Life

Guest
Never rule out Michelle Kwan. This is a lady who rises to the occasion, and I believe she will be right in there through the 2006 Olympics.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Rgirl said:
ITA [with Ritymeez]. Pre the split from Lori Nichol, Lori's choices of music, in general, I felt both pushed Michelle to work beyond her natural comfort zone and also skate some truly remarkable choreography to some truly amazing music. Even though I didn't feel Michelle's artistry and technique, aside from great jump consistency, was up to most of Lori's programs -- I loved Michelle's skating in "Rush," but that was done by Chris Dean -- I felt Michelle's artistry and technique would [eventually rise to :p ] the level Lori had set for her.
I have long felt that Michelle, as a teenager, was never able fully to understand and appreciate what Lori was trying to do for her. With difficult and unusual musical selections such as Lyra Angelica, the Red Violin and the Song of the Black Swan, Michelle did not instantly like the music or embrace Lori's artistic vision. Indeed, Michelle had to be kind of coaxed into it, according to reports at the time.

The only reason that Michelle ever gave for splitting with Lori and then with Frank was that she "wanted to take control over her own skating." I can see why she felt that way at 21. Still, her choice of music since that time shows, to me, that she sacrificed a certain amount of creative originality that she got from her former team.

In the latest issue of Blades on Ice, there is a long (12-page!) feature on Brian Boitano by Dorothy Knoell. One of the sections is subtitled "The Adviser," and discusses advice that Brian (one of Michelle's closest friends in the business) has given Michelle about whether she should continue in eligible competition or look for new creative worlds to conquer as a professional. Brian says:

"[Michelle] likes what she's doing, and doesn't want to do the professional stuff. She doesn't have visions of creating things. She likes doing her competitions, working on her programs, and that's great, that's good for her. She's not like I was -- I always wanted to do all the things that were restricted for me. That's why I decided to leave. But Shelly, she likes what she's doing, and as long as she does, she should keep doing it."

Still, bottom line, to me, yeah, she's better than ever. I love the lean, mean, fighting machine programs like Aranjuez and Tosca, where each jump is at least a little O. I do not especially like programs that have a lot of meaningless CoP-ish in-betweens that have nothing to do with the music or with the artistic conception of the program. (I especially think it's silly when a skater is obviously setting up for a jump and then wiggles his fanny back and forth -- I guess those are rockers (?) -- just so he can say, look I did some rockers into a jump.)

Just my opinion.

Mathman:)
 

gracefulswan

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 16, 2003
Joesitz said:
Does Michelle or any skater, for that matter, actually do the choreography. I know they contribute to it but I think in the last analysis, it is the choreographer who lays out the program, takes the skater's input and then the choreographer will complete the routine. That sounds like I am making easy of this but it does take a lot of work. My point on the choreography is the choreographer and not the skater. George Ballanchine often said that the dancers give me the way to the ballet. Morozov did MK's DC Worlds win. Should we not give him credit?

After 6 Worlds win what should the improvement have been? How has any skater improved in presentation except for Ando and Goebel? I contend that skaters have not improved in presentation since they made themselve known. Their style has been set in stone. Like it or not.

I know in the CoP, choreography is part of the PCS. I don't really agree with this because skaters without the means to hire top choreographers are at a disadvantage.

Bruin - Yeah, there are four and one will go medaless, and then there is Joannie Rochette. :)

Joe




uh.. the skater is not a blind follower of a chosen choreographer's whim joe, LOL, as you seem to be suggesting. as a matter of fact, a skater can hear, read, and understand what the fans/judges say about their programs and i'm sure could read some fan forum stuff if they had the inclination or even cared. what you're saying is that we should give all the credit to the choreog. and not to the performer...? yea right, it's the performers who give rise to the true interpretation of the music... and obviously not intended "masterpiece" is ever done justice, without the passion of the performer... and btw, ever heard of 'feadback'? skaters don't just take a program without an effort to develop it as needed and keep it interesting. i'm sorry but i totally disagree with you. and i didn't say anything about giving morozov credit did i? when did i even express an opinion about kwan's long program fashioned by him in the 2002-2003 season?? how does her win=giving him credit?? uh, she won by her own merits too, you know.

and styles are not set in stone, mind you. as we see, kwan has developed over the years and her style has changed a lot like it or not (as have her choices of music which she can choose, btw)... not all styles have to be set in stone... it depends on the attitude and coach..

so... we should give consideration to those skaters that can't hire top choreographers...in essence not judge it like we ought to for this reason? uh, are you joking? what do the fans/judges what? they/we want to watch good choreographed programs, end of story.. not empty programs.. they ought to be judged differently... else i certainly would be less interested and others too.. and who says that top choreographers all charge too much money for the lesser know skaters? (most that reach a certain meritable level all can usually afford to pay for lessons, etc.. as it takes more than a bit of money to train as a top figure skater) top coaches and choreog. see talent and know what talent is and scout for them too..

oh, did she win 6 world titles yet or are we getting a little ahead of ourselves here?? :p
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Joesitz said:
How has any skater improved in presentation except for Ando and Goebel? I contend that skaters have not improved in presentation since they made themselve known. Their style has been set in stone. Like it or not.
I disagree. Sometimes it's one thing -- look at Yagudin with Mishin vs. Yagudin with Tarasova. For that matter, I think Tarasova was able to bring out an Arakawa that others have not (Tarasova did not create a new Shizuka, just brought it out).

Even with the same coach, I feel that Totmianina and Marinin made a huge breakthrough with with Cotton Club program, and have been improving since. On the subject of pairs, what about Shen & Zhao?! Over the last 5 or so years they've really learned to connect with Western viewers.

Those are just example from the top of my head, there are of course a lot more.

I don't really agree with this because skaters without the means to hire top choreographers are at a disadvantage.
You can take this further - skaters who cannot hire a jumping specialist, for instance, are also at a disadvantage. I feel that Jane Bugaeva trailing behind Kimmie and Katy is largely due to her poor training conditions. So a certain amount of unfairness is built into any figure skating system.
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
If one looks at any type of art that is recreated, one will find, a variance in style and interpretation. Think of movie remakes, think of different ballerinas doing the same steps in the choreography, think of conductors playing the same symphonies.

Michelle is a solid skater as is Irina Slutskaya. If they both skated to Don Q, for example, with the same cut of music, I am convinced I would see two different interpretations of the same music. The styles of those two skaters have been established. What one would get with Don Q, is a more mature Irina. Similarly, what one would get with Salome, is a more mature Michelle.

If however, you are lumping increased technical prowess with that of improved artistry, then I have to disagree with you. The choreography has been set; the skater must give her interpretation of that. This I totally agree with. Kwan's Don Q, if she were to skate it, would be different than Irina's. I would expect that, in fact I would demand it, and I would not be saying one is more valid than the other.

Improving in one's interpretation skills, for me, is the hallmark of an excellent skater. In looking at skaters, I do not need a story line because I believe that makes the interpretation easier, and the amount of time spent during a routine is just too short for story telling.

I was overwhelmed with Sasha's interpretation of the music of Tschaikowsky's swan lake - not the story of swan lake. She skated her feelings of the music and did an excellent job of it. That she does not do quads or 3x3s is irrelevant to artistry. It's what you do with what you got. Of course skaters are going to improve every year technically (well, let's hope so) and becoming consistent is a big step in technicality, but again are they doing new tricks or are they enhancing their artistry? Remember, in figure skating; ALL JUMPS LOOK THE SAME IN THE AIR!
Joe
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Dear gracefulswan -

so... we should give consideration to those skaters that can't hire top choreographers...in essence not judge it like we ought to for this reason? uh, are you joking? what do the fans/judges what? they/we want to watch good choreographed programs, end of story.. not empty programs.. they ought to be judged differently... else i certainly would be less interested and others too.. and who says that top choreographers all charge too much money for the lesser know skaters? (most that reach a certain meritable level all can usually afford to pay for lessons, etc.. as it takes more than a bit of money to train as a top figure skater) top coaches and choreog. see talent and know what talent is and scout for them too..

This is your interpretation of what I said and I emphasize interpretation. :sheesh:

As to giving MK an extra World medal, you are correct. :cool:

Joe
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
SkateFan4Life said:
Never rule out Michelle Kwan. This is a lady who rises to the occasion, and I believe she will be right in there through the 2006 Olympics.

She certainly seems to step it up at nationals, but other than that, lately I wouldn't exactly say that...keyword being lately.
 

Fossi

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Lately? She did a great SP at Worlds that without a time deduction would've had her 2nd place at Worlds. She then went on to place 2nd in the LP at Worlds and had 1st place ordinals!! And she won the first cheesefest and placed 2nd in the latest. How is that not stepping it up? If she's not....who is?
 

StillBlueLake

Rinkside
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Mathman said:
I have long felt that Michelle, as a teenager, was never able fully to understand and appreciate what Lori was trying to do for her. With difficult and unusual musical selections such as Lyra Angelica, the Red Violin and the Song of the Black Swan, Michelle did not instantly like the music or embrace Lori's artistic vision. Indeed, Michelle had to be kind of coaxed into it, according to reports at the time.

I completely agree. I remember seeing this at the time: Michelle talking about "Salome" and saying "it's the music I've always been waiting for". This marked her emergence as a true artist blah blah blah.

Well IMO, that line was the fakest thing that I have ever heard Michelle say. She didn't particularly care about "Salome", she wanted to do what it took to win and she did.

This doesn't mean she's not an artist, but she was doing what she thought it took to win. Eventually she got sick of it and decided to leave.


"[Michelle] likes what she's doing, and doesn't want to do the professional stuff. She doesn't have visions of creating things. She likes doing her competitions, working on her programs, and that's great, that's good for her. She's not like I was -- I always wanted to do all the things that were restricted for me. That's why I decided to leave. But Shelly, she likes what she's doing, and as long as she does, she should keep doing it."

I had not read this. It makes alot of sense. Michelle is better than ever now because she likes what she is doing. To me, this shows in her freedom of movement and flow. Her flow is the best it has ever been. She has realized her programs need a bit more to score well, so she has added more according to reports.

Since 03, Michelle has put together programs that haven't rated the highest with the COP number cruncher fans :biggrin: but have obviously evoked passion and interest from Kwan herself.
 

Ogre Mage

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
In terms of her overall skating and proper technique, her powers seem to continue to grow. Her jumps are bigger and even her spins are faster than they used to be and still well-centered.

But in terms of technical difficulty and choreography, I find her less compelling than I used to.
 
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VIETgrlTerifa

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
StillBlueLake said:
I completely agree. I remember seeing this at the time: Michelle talking about "Salome" and saying "it's the music I've always been waiting for". This marked her emergence as a true artist blah blah blah.

Well IMO, that line was the fakest thing that I have ever heard Michelle say. She didn't particularly care about "Salome", she wanted to do what it took to win and she did.

This doesn't mean she's not an artist, but she was doing what she thought it took to win. Eventually she got sick of it and decided to leave.

Actually, in that medal presentation her fans at MKF did during the summer of 2003, Michelle said that her favorite program that she ever performed was Salome. She said she loved playing going into a difference character with the costume and look, etc. She also mentioned seeing the Broadway production of Oscar Wilde's Salome that was playing during that time.
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Ptichka said:
I
Even with the same coach, I feel that Totmianina and Marinin made a huge breakthrough with with Cotton Club program, and have been improving since. On the subject of pairs, what about Shen & Zhao?! Over the last 5 or so years they've really learned to connect with Western viewers.

.

I don't think it has been '5 or so years' since S&Z learned to connect with western viewers. They received some positive feedback in that area in the 2002 season, after they hired Leeann Miller to choreograph. That was not so long ago- it's been 2-3 years.

I did not see the Cotton Club as T&M's breakthrough program. In fact I did not think it suited them at all. I very much liked their LP last year. They were more themselves in it.

Vash
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
In 2003 and 2004 I loved the way she skated- with passion. However, her programs have been uninteresting compared to her past programs- Lyra Angelica, Taj Mahal, and SOTBS (my fave). I cared less for Salome. She looked the teenager she was in it. I did not care for Scheherazadeh (bad choice of music for her, IMO). I loved Aranjuez, even with empty choreography. In a way I am glad that MK is not competing in the GP series. Her programs would have appeared boring by USN. I really hope COP motivates her to get more interesting choreo in her programs.

Vash
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I thought T/M's "Cotton Club" program was dreadful and one of their worst. With their usual bland, blank-faced performances, they captured NONE of the character of the music.

The one thing that turns me off T/M is how little they relate to one another when they are skating. They may be synchronized physically, but not in any other way. IMO, they will never be one of the great Russian pairs in the same league as Gordeeva/Grinkov, Bechke/Petrov or Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze.
 

MidnightNess

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 4, 2003
I can agree with most that I think Kwan has improved leaps and bounds when it comes to basic skills,jump height,flow, and spin speed. I also think she has reached an emotional level that once she gets 'there', she simply can't be touched. It seems very few things unnerve her these days, other than boots :biggrin: ,and we saw it in Dortmund. Choreography wise, she needs help but it seems that she is improving this year and that's always good. The reports at Marshalls,at least the ones I've read are encouraging so who knows what she'll show us at Moscow.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
MidnightNess said:
I can agree with most that I think Kwan has improved leaps and bounds when it comes to basic skills,jump height,flow, and spin speed. I also think she has reached an emotional level that once she gets 'there', she simply can't be touched. It seems very few things unnerve her these days, other than boots :biggrin: ,and we saw it in Dortmund. Choreography wise, she needs help but it seems that she is improving this year and that's always good. The reports at Marshalls,at least the ones I've read are encouraging so who knows what she'll show us at Moscow.
ITA. Her technical improvement has shot up incredibly well with Scott and Arutunian, and I am just not in the quad mindset that so many fans are. She has all those triples and they are all solid . This in itself makes for the best performance on ice.

I don't believe a skater should be judged on choreography since the skater is not the prime creator of that artistic endeavour. I do believe whatever the choreography, the skater should show some interpretation from it with a connectiion to the chosen music. She could get Dean to push for more three turns, brackets, counters and rockers within the skate. And HELLO so should most skaters who are more intent in packing their programs with trick after trick and then suddenly look up at the audience and say 'now, watch my footwork'. hmmm.

Joe
 

ChiSk8Fan

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Joesitz said:
I do believe whatever the choreography, the skater should show some interpretation from it with a connectiion to the chosen music. She could get Dean to push for more three turns, brackets, counters and rockers within the skate. And HELLO so should most skaters who are more intent in packing their programs with trick after trick and then suddenly look up at the audience and say 'now, watch my footwork'. hmmm.

Joe
A great example of what you are describing as the seamless blending of elements can be seen in the 1988 Olympic Short Program of Caryn Kadavy. The program was choreographed by Toller Cranston. There were 7 elements to do then in 2:15 seconds, and in the program after building speed and doing her combination, Caryn only does a handfull of crossovers. All the moves are connected by footwork. Michelle also had a program which blended both to "Dante's Prayer".

The skaters of today can learn from watching past champions who needed to do this type of COP friendly skating to win without 7 triple jumps. Coaches also remember and will teach better skating with the jumps, hopefully.
 

peachstatesk8er

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 1, 2003
I think Michelle has continued to improve in some areas, while regressing in others. Overall I'd say she's really no better OR worse, but she does not hold my attention like she did when she was with Frank and Lori. Something is different. Not worse, necessarily, but different. Different enough that she's on the verge of becoming my bathroom break, unfortunately.
 

Linny

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 13, 2003
Second look

I was thinking that her programs were all looking the same... and then she took the floor at USA Nationals last year and "got me" once again.
Linny
 
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