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SkateFan4Life said:
Dagmar Prott (nee. Lurz) is now a judge. Most recently, she judged the 2003 World Junior Figure Skating championships
Dagmar Prott (nee. Lurz) is now a judge. Most recently, she judged the 2003 World Junior Figure Skating championships
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thisthingcalledlove said:
Thanks for the update! Maybe we'll see her at Worlds and/or the Olympics - in the judges' booth, that is.
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The exhibition performances following the figure skating competition featured gold medalists Rodnina/Zaitsev skating to the traditional Russian "Kalinka". Lots of quick steps and audience clapping. IMHO, they skated one of their best exhibition numbers at Lake Placid - they were powerful, confident, and bold. 
The 1980 Olympics was the first one I watched. I loved Denise Biellmann.
It also inspired me to take up ice skating. I did roller skating as a kid. And, when I watched the compulsories (the Kilian was one), I decided to try ice dancing. I've loved it ever since.
It also inspired me to take up ice skating. I did roller skating as a kid. And, when I watched the compulsories (the Kilian was one), I decided to try ice dancing. I've loved it ever since.
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TwizzlerS said:
I can remember the gasps in the audience when Denise Biellmann executed the spin that now bears her name. "Look at that!!" Even the announcers were blown away by that maneuver.
floskate said:
Very close, Floskate. Actually, Robin was undefeated in free skating for the last three years of his career, quite an accomplishment then or now! "Free skating" was the short and long program combined, and in those days figures and free skating received separate, smaller medals at competitions (other than the Olympics)--nowadays, "free skating" would be the whole competition.
I miss the huge jumps, such as delayed and open and tuck axels, that skaters like Robin and Charlie Tickner could include in their programs in those days, when the men had 5 minutes instead of the current 4 1/2 minutes for a long program, and they didn't need to pack in the current number of triples and quads. And, as Floskate says, Robin was able to do all of the triples, and had even done triple axels in combination in practice (he stopped working on triple axels after a stress fracture that he blamed on that jump), but in those days most top male skaters were doing three different triples, and the only "official" triple axel ever landed in competition had been Vern Taylor's shaky one only 2 years earlier, so it made sense for Robin to play it safe in competition and skate a clean, balanced program with his superior spins and footwork, very high and fast jumps, and a "normal" number of triples. Robin's Olympic long program was choreographed to include 5 triples, which he did do at Worlds the next month, but due to a couple problems his triple count was lower in Lake Placid. For what it's worth, in the 1976 Olympics John Curry also won with the same three different triples, the toe loop, salchow, and loop, and, according to articles at the time, Robin was the only skater in the 1976 Olympics to do 5 triples in his long program, so Robin was considered one of the very best jumpers in the world in his amateur days, and the triple jump bar was moving up slowly at the time. Triple axels weren't mandatory for the top men until 1985 or so.
ChiSk8Fan said:
Actually, you're remembering Robin's '80 Worlds short program, where he fell at the end of his straight line footwork (but still won the short program). In the '80 Olympics, Robin skated a flawless short program to The Railway Children, for which he received the only 6.0 awarded in Lake Placid. In the 1984 Olympic coverage on ABC, there was a hilarious segment on falls that showed numerous skaters falling in all sorts of ways, with most of the big names to that date, taken from all sorts of competitions and shows, and that comedy segment included Robin's '80 Worlds footwork fall. It was one of the very few times I can recall him falling (only 2 that I can think of on TV up to 1984), and in general I think that skaters tended to have fewer falls in programs during that period because they weren't forced to attempt as many triple (or quad) jumps, although of course there were still some memorable splat-fest programs!
And I heartily agree with all the praise for Denise Biellmann's wonderful '80 Olympic performances. I thought at the time that she was by far the best skater of the ladies, and that it was outrageous that she just missed a medal (Denise was 12th in figures, 2nd in the short, and first in the long program in Lake Placid, to finish 4th overall). Denise's jumping was indeed in a different league from the other women, similar to Midori Ito's unique jumping superiority in 1989, although Tonya Harding was also landing triple axels shortly after Midori. Denise is in the record books as the first woman to do a triple lutz in competition, in 1978, and at that point only a limited number of the top men were doing triple lutzes in competition. Most of the top women in 1980 (Poetzsch, Fratianne, etc.) were only doing triple toe loops and salchows, while IIRC Denise was doing everything but triple axels, a jump repertoire which would hold up in competition today (although she would need more consistency and combinations, of course). And Denise even landed a triple lutz in pro competition in the mid-1990s, around 16-18 years after she was the first woman to land one in competition, even more impressive when so many of the women who turned pro in her generation--and later--were only doing doubles as pros, or at least by that time.
Lois
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Lois said:
The men's World competitions between 1977 - 1980 were tightly contested meets between the top four men - Robin Cousins, Jan Hoffman, Charlie Tickner, and Vladimir Kovalev. Hoffman won one title, Kovalev won two titles, and Tickner won one title during those years. The 1978 Worlds was virtually a three-way tie, with Tickner winning by the narrowest of margins.
As wonderful a free skater as Cousins was, his comparatively weak school figures - and occasional errors in his free skating - prevented him from ever winning a World title. Of course, he won the grand prize - Olympic gold.
SkateFan4Life said:
Jan Hoffman also won Worlds in 1974, making for an extremely unusual time gap between his first World title and his 2nd in 1980. And another unusual fact about the 1978 Worlds men's competition was that, besides being a virtual 3-way tie between Charlie, Robin, and Jan that may have been the closest finish of that sort under that judging system, Charlie won the overall title without winning any portion of the competition--figures, short, or long. The way the ordinals were split, Charlie had the highest number of either 2nds or higher or 3rds or higher--I think they had to go down to third place or higher to decide the title!
SkateFan4Life said:
Yes, the disproportionate influence of figures on overall results was a chronic problem for Robin, and for other prominent free skaters of this period, such as Denise Biellmann (see above, though she was finally able to win Worlds when the scoring system was changed in 1981, after the three skaters who had placed ahead of her in Lake Placid turned pro or retired), Toller Cranston, and Janet Lynn. The short program was created because of the way figures specialist but weak free skater Trixie Schuba was beating Janet Lynn by building an insurmountable lead in figures. During the 70s, it was quite common for the winner of the free skating not to win the overall title, and often to fail to even medal overall, as when Denise in Lake Placid won the long but finished 4th overall. It was usually necessary for a skater to finish in the top 3 in figures to win an overall title, no matter how superior their free skating might be. From what I've read, Robin was the only Olympic champion who wasn't in the top 3 in figures--he was 4th--and after finishing 5th in figures the next month at Worlds, Robin went into the long program (skating after Jan Hoffman) knowing that it was impossible for him to win the overall World title, because 6.3 wasn't a permitted mark. The scoring system changes in 1981 made it easier for the top free skaters to make up more ground from lower figres placements than they could prior to those changes. It was also commonly believed that good free skaters were often held up somewhat in figures in order to keep them within medal contention, even if still out of reach of the overall gold.
Lois
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Lois said:
Well, Janet Lynn won the free skate in her World Championship appearances of 1971, 1972, and 1973, with mixed results. She finished fourth in 1971, third in 1972 (and at the Olympics that year), and second in 1973. Janet had the misfortune of sharing the ice with Austrian Trixi Schuba, who was one of the greatest school figures skaters of all time. Trixi built up such a massive lead in that discipline that the rest of the skaters had little, if any, chance to defeat her for the gold medal. And, until 1973, the competition was comprised of the school figures and the long program. If you messed up in the school figures, there wasn't much opportunity to get back in the hunt for medals.
I remember watching Trixi Schuba's 1972 Olympic and World long program, and both times I had to shake my head in dismay and wonder, "How in the heck did that girl win the gold medal with such a lame free skate?" :sheesh: Her free skating, compared with the other top women, was nothing short of an embarrassment. Trixi finished seventh in the free skate at the 1972 Worlds, but her outstanding first-place in the school figures clinched the title for her.
Dorothy Hamill won the long program at the 1974, 1975, and 1976 Worlds, but she won silver in 74 and 75 and gold in 76. Dorothy made mistakes in her short programs in 74 and 75, and because the competitions were very closely contested between Hamill, Holland's Diane de Leeuw, and East Germany's Christine Errath, any mistake could, and did, cost her the title.
Linda Fratianne won the long program at the 1977, 1978, and 1979 Worlds, but she won gold in 1977 and 1979 and had to settle for silver in 1978. Linda's school figures were not as strong as East Germany's Annet Poetzsch - or at least they were not scored as high by the judges - so she was constantly in the position of working herself back after the school figures.
Those were some interesting details on the women in the 1970s, SkateFan4Life. In those, the winner of the free skating and/or long program usually got a medal, at least, and occasionally the gold, but the majority of time the free skating/long program winner didn't win the overall gold medal. Regarding Poetzsch, from what I've read she was an extremely good figures skater, and as far as I can tell was undefeated in figures for about four years, so she probably deserved her figures wins, unlike (from what I've read) Katarina Witt winning figures at '88 Worlds, after years of reportedly lousy figures and lower figure placements, which was written off as a gift for the newly crowned 2-time Olympic champion that year.
When I wrote "During the 70s, it was quite common for the winner of the free skating not to win the overall title, and often to fail to even medal overall," I was thinking not only of the women at Worlds, but also the men, who I think are a stronger example, and other competitions such as Europeans (where in the late 70s Robin Cousins and Denise Biellmann both did the "win the freeskating but not the gold" routine, 3 times for Robin and I think at least once for Denise) and Nationals, such as 1980 US Nationals, when Lisa-Marie Allen won the free skating, but was 2nd overall behind Fratianne.
For the men at Worlds in the 1970s, I didn't start watching skating until 1976 and don't have all the free skating results handy for the earlier years, but compare this to the women's results listed above as an example of how badly figures were handicapping the best male figure skaters of the mid to late 1970s: from 1973-1980 Toller Cranston and Robin Cousins won the free skating at Worlds three times each, but ended up with merely a single overall bronze for Toller and a bronze and two silvers for Robin, compared with the 6 golds that would have translated to under the current no-figures system. In 1976, John Curry did (deservedly) win both the free skating and the overall gold at the Worlds and Olympics, but I think that John was the only man to do so at Worlds during those 8 years! I don't have my old skating magazines handy and I am not absolutely certain who the free skating champion was at '77 Worlds, when Robin had to withdraw injured, but I believe that it was Minoru Sano, the Japanese skater who won the overall bronze before a home country crowd in a dramatic fashion that year, but was also (as usual with the best free skaters of the period) dragged down by low figures. Kovalev, who won overall that year, certainly wasn't a great free skater, but he regularly placed high in figures, as did Jan Hoffman. So, IIRC, John Curry in 1976 was the only man in 8 years who was able to win both the free skating and the overall title at Worlds, and even if you include the two Olympic golds for John and Robin that is still a mere 3 out of 10 overall titles to the best male free skater of the competition, a dramatic illustration of the effect of figures in those days compared to the current free-skating-only state of the sport. And both John and Robin only won Europeans once, again thanks to low figures in Robin's case.
Lois
When I wrote "During the 70s, it was quite common for the winner of the free skating not to win the overall title, and often to fail to even medal overall," I was thinking not only of the women at Worlds, but also the men, who I think are a stronger example, and other competitions such as Europeans (where in the late 70s Robin Cousins and Denise Biellmann both did the "win the freeskating but not the gold" routine, 3 times for Robin and I think at least once for Denise) and Nationals, such as 1980 US Nationals, when Lisa-Marie Allen won the free skating, but was 2nd overall behind Fratianne.
For the men at Worlds in the 1970s, I didn't start watching skating until 1976 and don't have all the free skating results handy for the earlier years, but compare this to the women's results listed above as an example of how badly figures were handicapping the best male figure skaters of the mid to late 1970s: from 1973-1980 Toller Cranston and Robin Cousins won the free skating at Worlds three times each, but ended up with merely a single overall bronze for Toller and a bronze and two silvers for Robin, compared with the 6 golds that would have translated to under the current no-figures system. In 1976, John Curry did (deservedly) win both the free skating and the overall gold at the Worlds and Olympics, but I think that John was the only man to do so at Worlds during those 8 years! I don't have my old skating magazines handy and I am not absolutely certain who the free skating champion was at '77 Worlds, when Robin had to withdraw injured, but I believe that it was Minoru Sano, the Japanese skater who won the overall bronze before a home country crowd in a dramatic fashion that year, but was also (as usual with the best free skaters of the period) dragged down by low figures. Kovalev, who won overall that year, certainly wasn't a great free skater, but he regularly placed high in figures, as did Jan Hoffman. So, IIRC, John Curry in 1976 was the only man in 8 years who was able to win both the free skating and the overall title at Worlds, and even if you include the two Olympic golds for John and Robin that is still a mere 3 out of 10 overall titles to the best male free skater of the competition, a dramatic illustration of the effect of figures in those days compared to the current free-skating-only state of the sport. And both John and Robin only won Europeans once, again thanks to low figures in Robin's case.
Lois
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Lois said:
Annet Poetzsch was an extremely good school figures skater, and nobody in her era had an issue concerning her victories in that discipline. Her figures were clean, accurate, and right on axis. Poetzsch was so good at figures that she emassed a formidable lead going into the short and long programs. As I wrote, in the 1977 and 1979 Worlds, Linda Fratianne managed to pull herself up and win the gold medal with strong short and long programs. That did not happen in 1978 or in 1980. In fact, Fratianne slumped at the 1980 Worlds, her last World appearance, and came away with only a bronze medal.
Katarina Witt did not exactly have "lousy" school figures, but they weren't the best in the field, either. Her third-place finish at the 1984 Olympics kept her within striking distance, and she won both the short and long programs and won the gold medal, deservably. She did not win the school figures between the 1984-1987 Worlds, but she always finished high enough to be within striking distance of the gold. The judges, obviously, had a high opinion of Witt, and they wanted to keep her figures scores up so that she could win with strong free skating. Of course, at the 1986 Worlds, Witt took herself out of the running for the gold medal by missing her jump combination in the short program. She won the long program but had to settle for silver behind Debi Thomas. At Calgary, Witt finished third in the figures, first in the short, and second in the long (which was won by Canada's Elizabeth Manley), and won the gold medal.
The school figures judging at the 1988 Worlds was nothing short of a disgrace.
Elizabeth Manley wrote about this in her book "Thumbs Up!", and I remember reading about it in the press as well. Witt completely missed her final figure and should have receive low scores for it. Instead, the judges held up her marks, and she won the school figures. Go figure - no pun indented. The judges gave the message loud and clear - "The only way to defeat a two-time Olympic champion is to score a knock-out punch". In skating, of course, not literally! Manley and her coach were absolutely dumfounded about the school figures result, and there was some consideration about lodging a protest, but they decided not to pursue it. Again, the handwriting was on the wall. Witt was not about to be defeated. Had either Thomas or Manley skated their best in the short and long, however, they might have pulled an upset. Witt only landed two triples in her long program, but Thomas and Manley also made major mistakes, so Witt prevailed again.
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And when Annet Poetzsch stood at the boards, preparing to start her Olympic long program, her coach, Jutta Muller, took both of her hands and said to her, "You must be strong. You must go for the jumps. You must win."
That's not putting too much pressure on your skater, is it? :sheesh:
In winning the gold medal, Poetzsch became the first East German figure skater - man, woman, pair, or ice dance - to win Olympic gold.
That's not putting too much pressure on your skater, is it? :sheesh:
In winning the gold medal, Poetzsch became the first East German figure skater - man, woman, pair, or ice dance - to win Olympic gold.
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SkateFan4Life said:
Yeah, but apparently it worked!
Then it worked AGAIN in 1984 and 1988 with Katarina Witt! Maybe that's what Sasha and other skaters who tend to crumble at major competitions need to win: a good dose of in-your-faceness instead of coaches trying to delicately "handle" their fragile psyches.
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RealtorGal said:Yeah, but apparently it worked!
Maybe that's what Sasha and other skaters who tend to crumble at major competitions need to win: a good dose of in-your-faceness instead of coaches trying to delicately "handle" their fragile psyches.
Interesting thought. Perhaps Frau Mutter could be brought over to train Sasha.
Somehow, I that might not work. On the other hand, perhaps Sasha needs to train with a coach who is a strict disciplinarian and who does not coddle her skaters. Mutter obviously had a good relationship with her daughter, Gaby Seyfert, who won the 1968 Olympic silver and the 1969/1970 World titles, and she was close to Annet Poetzsch, who won at Lake Placid in 1980. The media made a point to show the close relationship Mutter had with Katarina Witt, who she coached to six European, four World, and two Olympic titles. In all cases, Mutter was the boss who called the shots, but she certainly got the results!
However -- all of that was under the auspices of the German Democratic Republic, a Communist puppet state which did not give the time of day to individual expression, personal liberty, etc.
Somehow I can't imagine Sasha Cohen training under those circumtances. That's not meant as a criticism to Sasha, it's just an observation. She evidently clashed with Tarasova and rebelled against her strict rules.
So, what does Sasha need in a coach anyway? Strictness with Nicks and Tarasova did not work, and friendly, good vibes with Wagner did not work, either. :sheesh:
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SkateFan4Life said:
Actually in 1973, Karen Magnussen of Canada won the Worlds - in all three disciplines - figures, short program and long program. Karen came second in the 1972 Olympics in Sapporo, Japan.
Both Karen and Janet were overshadowed by the strength Trixi Schuba had in the school figures. Of course, figures counted for up to 60% of the marks until the introduction of the short program. Still, Trixi deserves our respect. She gained her titles when figure skating was about figures - not jumping. Trixi was in a class of her own when it came to tracing figures. I saw her trace figures once - they were perfect. Beleive me, no small feat if you have ever had to trace figures. Her tracings were one on top of the other, no wobbles and perect symmetrically.
It used to bug me as well when it came down to the free skate that Karen would be first in the free skate, but had to concede to Trixi Schuba because of her huge lead in the figures. There was no comparison in their skating styles. I am sure any of the young local skaters from a club level could have outskated Trixi; however, no one could match her superb figures. As Trixi once observed after some harsh criticism over winning the World title: "After all it is figure skating."
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Has nothing to do with 1980s, but I bet people wonder what she looked like
Karen, Trixi, and Julie Holmes
Trixi on Holiday on Ice
Trixi now, president of the Austrian Figure Skating Association
Ladskater said:
Karen, Trixi, and Julie Holmes
Trixi on Holiday on Ice
Trixi now, president of the Austrian Figure Skating Association
This is slightly off topic, but whatever happened to Annett Poetzsch? Of all the Winter Olympic Gold Medallists of the past 20 years, she's the one I seem to hear the least/almost nothing about. The only time I've ever seen her was at an exhibition many years ago on TV, where the past OGM-winning ladies (through 1994) did a group number together, and the final pose was the final pose each of them took in her OGM winning LP
Also (and again, off topic), but Dianne de Leeuw of the Netherlands was mentioned earlier; did she switch nationalities in her career? I have seen her listed in FS tables as representing Netherlands/USA
Also (and again, off topic), but Dianne de Leeuw of the Netherlands was mentioned earlier; did she switch nationalities in her career? I have seen her listed in FS tables as representing Netherlands/USA
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Matt said:
Diane De Leeuw had both Dutch and American citizenship, but found that competing in regionals/sectional competition too taxing on her...so she chose to skate for the Netherlands. Anett Poetzsch became a banker of some sort after her win, but now coaches. (Her first coaching experiment was on her daughter, Claudia Rauschenbach, who used to skate pairs with Robin Szolkowy)
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Ladskater said:
I have to dispute you in your call of the 1973 Worlds. Certainly, Canadian Karen Magnussen won the title, and justly so. Janet Lynn won the silver medal, but she managed to do this with spectacular skating in the long program, which she won. Lynn fell twice in her short program and was judged 12th in that phase of the competition. The fact that Janet managed to pull herself up to medal contention, and finish second, was a testament to her outstanding free skating.
The school figures were 60 percent of the Olympic and World scores in 1968 when Peggy Fleming won the titles. However, the ISU attempted to give a bit more emphasis on the free skating part of the competition by equalizing the weight of the scores - the percentages, anyway - so that by 1972 the school figures were 50 percent of the overall score and the long program was 50 percent of the overall score. Obviously, you still had to score high in the school figures to have a chance at a medal.
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One of the things that really distinguished the 1980 Winter Olympics - for me at least - was the wonderful LIVE television coverage that was broadcast. Since I live in New Jersey, we were all very much in the same time zone, etc., as Lake Placid, and ABC did an excellent job of broadcasting hours and hours of the competition on live television.
We watched the opening ceremonies, live, as well as many of the hockey games (US, of course!), and much of the figure skating. We saw the heartbreak of Tai and Randy on live television, as well as Robin Cousins' exhuberant victory and Linda Fratianne's disappointing second-place finish. I remember watching Linda's face on the podium - it was an expression of shock, disbelief, and near-tears.
In contrast, there really wasn't much of a surprise in watching Dorothy Hamill's 1976 gold medal long program, as everyone knew that she had won, as Austria is six hours ahead of the US East Coast. Same thing for Nagano, which is 14 hours ahead of the US East Coast. There wasn't much suspense in watching Tara defeat Michelle, as we all knew the results!
We watched the opening ceremonies, live, as well as many of the hockey games (US, of course!), and much of the figure skating. We saw the heartbreak of Tai and Randy on live television, as well as Robin Cousins' exhuberant victory and Linda Fratianne's disappointing second-place finish. I remember watching Linda's face on the podium - it was an expression of shock, disbelief, and near-tears.
In contrast, there really wasn't much of a surprise in watching Dorothy Hamill's 1976 gold medal long program, as everyone knew that she had won, as Austria is six hours ahead of the US East Coast. Same thing for Nagano, which is 14 hours ahead of the US East Coast. There wasn't much suspense in watching Tara defeat Michelle, as we all knew the results!
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