Irina's choreography?

Fossi · Dec 13, 2004

I'm not getting it. I have heard wonderful things about Irina's program and how she is the best in the world right now. I watched COR and I noticed she has just as empty of a program as the American girls. Do 3 turns into jumps count as "choreography?" If so, please explain how. She did this twice. She also does so many beillmans that I get tired of watching. I wish she would try something different. I know they rake in the points, but it gets boring to watch.
She deserved that win though. She had energy and speed. It looked to me like she saved a lot of the jumps though, but she did and that's what counts.
I just don't understand how some say her program is jam packed with choreography. Maybe I need to watch this program again?

lavender · Dec 13, 2004

I know what ya mean. There's not a lot of substance. Just a lot of continous movement with spins, jumps, footwork. Nothing really special in between. I adore Irina. She's just so cute to me but I don't understand the points for doing beilmans in everything.

I have a feeling that my fav Michelle will have a similar type of program. I hope not but it just seems like it's all about racking up points and not the program as a whole.

thisthingcalledlove · Dec 14, 2004

What you guys are telling me scares me. It's starting to seem like the programs will turn into those horrid floor exerises in gymnastics that have nothing to do with music...

Tonichelle · Dec 14, 2004

I think it's becoming more about points in teh ladies... but the men seem to be putting both together...

I like this program of Irina's... she's not trying to be "Michelle" in this program... meaning she's not trying the traditional ladies approach... it's exciting and fun for her... do I think it's the best ever? No, I thought Elena Sokolova was more exciting in that way... but Irina has a lot of speed in everything... *sigh*

all the ladies are really boring, program wise, this year IMHO

Vash01 · Dec 14, 2004

Fossi said:
I'm not getting it. I have heard wonderful things about Irina's program and how she is the best in the world right now. I watched COR and I noticed she has just as empty of a program as the American girls. Do 3 turns into jumps count as "choreography?" If so, please explain how. She did this twice. She also does so many beillmans that I get tired of watching. I wish she would try something different. I know they rake in the points, but it gets boring to watch.
She deserved that win though. She had energy and speed. It looked to me like she saved a lot of the jumps though, but she did and that's what counts.
I just don't understand how some say her program is jam packed with choreography. Maybe I need to watch this program again?

Three turns into a 3loop is considered 'difficult entrance into a jump', and she rightfully gets credit for it. Nobody does it better.

She has plenty of difficult footwork throughout the program, and particularly in the entrances to the jumps.

She does overuse the Biellman. In the spirals in particular that position gets boring. She needs to find a different position. However, there are no deductions for overusing a position. She has used the COP in a very smart way.

Just the fact she is skating and doing 3-3 combinations is amazing. There is nothing wrong with her choreography. She is not Michelle or Sasha. She has her own style and it works for her.

re:everyone just going for the points- wouldn't you do it, if winning or losing depended on the points? That is the weakness of the COP. Skaters use all kinds of difficult moves and acrobatics whether the music requires it or not. Personally I would much rather see just the right amount of difficulty needed to interpret a certain music. Unfortunately under the COP it won't be given enough points to win.

Vash

MidnightNess · Dec 14, 2004

She has plenty of difficult footwork throughout the program, and particularly in the entrances to the jumps.

I'm not sure if I agree here. She definitely has a difficult footwork sequence but I watched her COR performance and she does the same little bit of fw (I think it's a mohawk with something else) before a few jumps,engages in a 2-3 second pause before entering the take-off phase of that jump. I wouldn't exactly call it difficult because she pauses and doesn't enter the jump immediately after the footwork. The sole exception is her 3 turns into her 3loop, now that's difficult because of the turns and there's no pause.

I too am sick of seeing that beilmann. I counted her using it 5 times in her program, maybe a 6th one is in there that I didn't catch but there is no current rule against it. That might change in the future since they're still tweaking COP.

Choreography wise, she has a lot of arm movement that is expressive and with the music, but I looked at her feet, and very little is happening with the exception of some solo 3 turns and the bit of fw before a few of her jumps. She has good ice coverage though and I think what makes people believe that there is a lot of choreography is that she is able to tie everything together pretty tightly, jumps into a spin, spiral into another element with the use of fewer crossovers than most. So she definitely knows how to rack up the points and good for her.

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 14, 2004

With all due respect to Irina's technical prowess, I am left without any emotional feeling from her except that she is the finest technical skater of her era who executes every move by the numbers, and she does them without peer. Her choreography (I mean who ever did it) is standard and overpacked with various elements leaving little room for her to interpret the music.

Having said that I do believe she is the best competitor in this season's competitions. I anticipate a Gold in Moscow and it has nothing to do with the hometown venue. She is for me the best competitor.

Joe

ritymeez · Dec 14, 2004

I don't know. I never considered her 3 turns into the loop a harder entrance. What I think is that she needs the 3 turns to do the loops. I have never seen her do a loop without one (maybe in a combination). So yeah, that my opinion on this matter.

sk8m8 · Dec 14, 2004

I don't like the spirals, either. However, Irina uses them so smartly, I can understand. Who else on the International scene can hold a Beilmann position while doing an spiral on DEEP and changing edges??? The other consideration is, whether or not we like the positions in the spins, how fast and centered are they? The answer there, faster and more centered than most. And finally, what do those Beilmann posistion do? They hide weaknesses (line and extention) and showcase strengths (flexibility and edge control). Lastly, as much as I dislike the program (because I like Irina when she's a bit more emotional as she's been in some of her past programs) I think it's the most technically complex of the ladies I've seen this year. Like it, no...respect it, well I guess it just commands it.

VIETgrlTerifa · Dec 14, 2004

ITA that her Biellman spins are fast...but more centered than anybody's? I never though I'd see someone applaud Irina's spins for their centering.

wvgal57 · Dec 14, 2004

There is slight footwork into both lutzes, footwork into the flip, different 3's into the sal than the loop and her straight line footwork is mostly on one foot with different turns. So to say there is nothing in this program is not true. There is no resting in this program except for the part where she deals the cards, it's high energy, fast paced and difficult. She still wants to add more difficulty by Worlds and continues to pace herself. She's been the busiest lady of all!.

She's added the Tano2toe to the 3toe. That makes all of her jumps have something different, her DA is the only thing she's not added to but that is because she doesn't train it because of the torn ligaments in her knee.

Her flying camel is extremely difficult and level 3 and she is using her own strengths to maximize the points. The IraSpiral as we are calling it is very dangerous as well as difficult and as someone else said, not many could do a change of edge while in that position. Her layback spin has many fast transtions with good control, flow, speed and centering.

She says there are still areas of this program she intends to work on during the 2nd half of training and that she still sees things to improve on. Program is a work in progress but off to an extremely good start under COP.

Her spins right now are the hardest thing for her to get back. They are the most taxing on her but she continues to work hard to try to get them back as sharp as in previous years. The only spin Irina ever traveled on is her last spin where she changes feet. Her layback spins and blur spins have always had good centering..

If you got to see her new exhibition you'll see a few new moves she is working on.

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 14, 2004

Three turns into 3loop and bielman-like-spiral do not constitute great choreography. They are among the many, many, elements she utilizes in her routine and for me, there is no passion for that pretty music she is skating to.

I don't want to go into Pushkins story of the Queen of Spades, but as I recall from the opera, the Countess was an old lady who was kind of mystic. Is she doing that? I dunno, all I see is an ace of hearts on her dress. I don't think she has to take on the Countess but give me something with the music.

Joe

chuckm · Dec 14, 2004

Irina's been doing 3 turns into a loop for years--nothing new there. What she is doing with the spiral is pretty much what she used to do except now she's holding the blade of her skate. Her spiral position is not pretty to look at, but it fulfills the criteria for a high level of difficulty. She's also done one-foot footwork before in her routines.

I agree that there is a lot of busyness in her FS, lots of energy, and very little in the way of expressing the music. It's as if the music is there as a background to a very athletic routine. But she does do it well, and you have to give her credit for that. She's sure mounting up those CoP points.

Ptichka · Dec 14, 2004

Joesitz said:
I don't want to go into Pushkins story of the Queen of Spades, but as I recall from the opera, the Countess was an old lady who was kind of mystic. Is she doing that? I dunno, all I see is an ace of hearts on her dress. I don't think she has to take on the Countess but give me something with the music.

I would imagine she means the Queen of Spades as the card Herman draws at the end of the game, not the Countess who is indeed quite ugly. I really recommend you read the book -- in writing the opera script Modest Tchaikovsky (Peter's brother) really trivialized it. The book is much better, and it's a shame that most people only know the opera. Let me give you one example: in the opera, Lisa ends up comitting suicide. In the book, though, she fully recovers to marry "a very proper young man". It's not as dramatic, but it's shows a unique cynicism that distinguishes Pushkin's later works - Herman is broke, and goes crazy; Lisa's heart is broken, but she easily recovers.

wvgal57 · Dec 14, 2004

Bobrin started the program last season with Pushkins theme in mind. Plans were for he and Irina to work through the GP series on the program.

This program has now evolved and changed. Irina said recently that this progarm was about "fate" and dealing with the hand that lifes deals you. The program seems to evolve and encase her struggles of recent and her attitude, power, fierceness and final joy is her way of expressing the revolving door she's been in. The final joy is her overcoming all of the obstacles and getting back to the top, doing what she loves to be doing, the passion is there.

She is actually wearing her heart for all to see and if you'll watch COR K&C she draws the "Heart" to her fans.

She is no longer listing this program as Queen of Spades, it's Wonderland now. I see nothing of last years program (except the music) other than some of the opening brackets, twizzles and footwork and the rest stop to deal her cards.

Also, Irina is not doing 4 Bielman spins. She is doing 3 different spin variations which include the Bielman as ONE of the spin positions. The judges reward this difficult move and as they say, not everyone can do that.. Her final Double-Bielman is of course, her own so it will most likely remain.

hockeyfan228 · Dec 14, 2004

sk8m8 said:
. Who else on the International scene can hold a Beilmann position while doing an spiral on DEEP and changing edges???

Shizuka Arakawa.

JonnyCoop · Dec 14, 2004

From an artistic standpoint, I don't understand Irina at all. After she had that disastrous 98-99 season and got bumped off the team, she re-emerged in 99-00 with her "Carmen" program that showed a sense of artistry and expression that I never thought she was capable of. I looked forward to more really great stuff from her after tjhat, but IMO she just hasn't delivered, instead she seems to be regressing, getting by more on her personality and her certain je ne said quois than she is on actual expression.

That being said, however, I think she is absolutely TERRIFIC when it comes to short programs. Her "Culture" SP in 00-01 was fabulous, as was her Olympic SP in SLC (which I feel she should have won easily).

Fossi · Dec 14, 2004

wvgal. I understand that Irina does the beillman because of its difficulty, but can't she do anything else? It looks like she focuses too much on this particular skating move and isn't pushing herself to do anything else. Maybe by Worlds she will have reworked this.

Fossi · Dec 14, 2004

Vash01 said:
Three turns into a 3loop is considered 'difficult entrance into a jump', and she rightfully gets credit for it. Nobody does it better.

Vash

I know that 3 turns into the 3loop is considered difficult, and I disagree. Sarah Hughes did it just as good, if not better! :biggrin:

Anyhoo, I just don't understand why everyone talks about Irina's great choreography compared to the other girls programs. I see empty programs with her doing 3 turns into 3 jumps twice and lots of biellmans. Good program, but not unbeatable by any means.

Vash01 · Dec 14, 2004

Fossi said:
I know that 3 turns into the 3loop is considered difficult, and I disagree. Sarah Hughes did it just as good, if not better!
Anyhoo, I just don't understand why everyone talks about Irina's great choreography compared to the other girls programs. I see empty programs with her doing 3 turns into 3 jumps twice and lots of biellmans. Good program, but not unbeatable by any means.

Depends on who she is competing against (talking of 'unbeatable'). I don't think anybody is unbeatable.

I would not even try comparing Sarah Hughes with Irina, whether she did 3loop from3 turns or not. Her underrotated jumps would have been doubles under COP. The power and height of Irina's jumps is not matched by many skaters.

Vash

Irina's choreography?

Fossi

lavender

thisthingcalledlove

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

Vash01

MidnightNess

Joesitz (RIP)

ritymeez

sk8m8

VIETgrlTerifa

wvgal57

Joesitz (RIP)

chuckm

Ptichka

Forum translator

wvgal57

hockeyfan228

JonnyCoop

Fossi

Fossi

Vash01

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