CoP question

Mehdi · Dec 14, 2004

Hi all

In the CoP system men are allowed to do 8 jump passes and women 7.
I was wondering if the CoP featured some kind of reward for the variety of jumps performed.
I mean, in the 6.0 system, judges are to give better marks to a skater who shows 2 different jumps instead of showing twice the same jump. (for jumps of equivalent difficulty of course, ie a toe loop and a salchow for example)

Let's imagine this:
Skater A does:
4ple toe
3ple axel/2ble toe
3ple axel
3ple lutz
3ple flip
3ple loop
3ple toe/2ble toe
3ple toe
(8 jump passes but no salchow in his repertoire)

Skater B does:
4ple toe
3ple axel/ 2ble toe
3ple axel
3ple lutz
3ple flip
3ple loop
3ple toe/2ble toe
3ple salchow
(8 jump passes, full repertoire of jumps)

The only difference is a second 3ple toe instead of the 3ple salchow for skater A.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a 3ple toe and a 3ple salchow give you the same account of points, so it seems that both skaters will get the same total of points for doing these elements (if they do everything with the same quality), and Skater B will not be rewarded in any sort for showing a richest repertoire of jumps than Skater B, which is unfair. :sheesh:
I hope my English is not too broken and all this does make sense to you

hockeyfan228 · Dec 14, 2004

CoP gives no extra points for variety of jumps. It awards solely on a scale of difficulty. If a skater can perform, for example, a 3F/2T, a 3F, and no 3R, s/he starts with a higher base score than if she performs a 3F/2T, 3R, and no 3F, because the base score of a 3F (5.5) is .5 higher than the base score for a 3R (5.0).

In jumping, the only levels at which Sals have the same base value as Toes are single (.4) and double (1.3). 3S (4.5) has a higher base value than 3T (4.0), and 4S (9.5) has a higher base value than 4T (9.0). (In Pairs, all Sal and Toe throws have equal base value.) So from triple on up, there is more incentive to do a Salchow over a Toe, as long as the skater does not lose the difference in base score (.5) in average execution score.

Mehdi · Dec 14, 2004

Oops, I thought the toe loop and the salchow as triples had the same base values.
Anyway, you confirm that there are no extra points for variety of jumps which is ridiculous. This system allows skaters to excel without completing the full repertoire of jumps.

This has to be fixed IMHO.

sk8er1964 · Dec 14, 2004

Wouldn't the lack of variations in the jumps show up in the second (presentation - I forget what they are calling it) marks?

Ptichka · Dec 14, 2004

Realistically, a lady can only skip one kind of a jump and still get to the maximum jumping passes without violating Ziak; men cannot skip any. I therefore don't consder this as a failure for CoP.

Mehdi · Dec 14, 2004

Hi Pitchka

Doesn't my "skater A" skip the salchow and still use the 8 passes he is allowed to ?
With a second quad a skater could skip another one and still use his 8 passes, right ? (ok, this type of programme is unlikely since a skater who does one or two quads would do 3/3s to optimize his 8 passes)

Ptichka · Dec 14, 2004

Mehdi said:
(ok, this type of programme is unlikely since a skater who does one or two quads would do 3/3s to optimize his 8 passes)

Exactly! Plus, one of the combos is likely to include 3 jumps, so that's another one (of course, the combo is there is likely to be a 3-3-2, and doubles aren't included in Zayak, but to maximize points it would be 3-3-3).

hockeyfan228 · Dec 14, 2004

A man with 2 different quads, including at least one in combination could skip two jumps entirely.

Example:

4T/3T/2R
3S/3R
3A/3T
4T
4S
3A
3S
3R

No Flip or Lutz.

To get the 4/3/3, he could skip one jump:

4T/3T/3R
3S/3R
3A/3T
4T
4S
3A
3S
Either 3Z or 3F, leaving out the other.

I have no problem with a skater leaving out a jump. If s/he repeats a harder jump, I think s/he should get more credit, and if s/he repeats an easier jump, s/he will get less credit.

sk8m8 · Dec 14, 2004

while someone brought up the subject of 3-3-2 revolution jumps...I think this is the one glaring FRIGHT of the CoP system. That extra 2 rev jumps gets extra points, but I've never seen ANY skater not stop dead in their tracks at the end of the doulble. It looks stooooooooopid and ruins the flow of of the combination. If someone is capable of doing the jump combo- sequence and gets runout on the third jump, hey WONDERFUL, they should get megabonus points. However, in my musings and observations, it usually looks like the normal suspects who do them execute a great or good first jump, rush the second jump and then completely screach to a halt on the third (double) jump. I wish that they'd start taking off serious points for poor execution of the second and third jumps in a combo-sequence and hopefully get the skaters back on track of putting out solid jumps and combinations with great technique and runout and let them rack up some "bene" points in thier footwork, moves in the field, or spins.

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 15, 2004

sk8m8 said:
while someone brought up the subject of 3-3-2 revolution jumps...I think this is the one glaring FRIGHT of the CoP system. That extra 2 rev jumps gets extra points, but I've never seen ANY skater not stop dead in their tracks at the end of the doulble. It looks stooooooooopid and ruins the flow of of the combination. If someone is capable of doing the jump combo- sequence and gets runout on the third jump, hey WONDERFUL, they should get megabonus points. However, in my musings and observations, it usually looks like the normal suspects who do them execute a great or good first jump, rush the second jump and then completely screach to a halt on the third (double) jump. I wish that they'd start taking off serious points for poor execution of the second and third jumps in a combo-sequence and hopefully get the skaters back on track of putting out solid jumps and combinations with great technique and runout and let them rack up some "bene" points in thier footwork, moves in the field, or spins.

Well said,Sk8m8. How many skaters do we know that can do a combo of three jumps and have a complete run out after the third jump? I won't mention names because it will get away from the point, but I've seen the best jumpers, and most if not all have actually stopped short of any flow after that third jump. To me, that is not figure skating. Some skaters have trouble with a good run out after a combo of two jumps. Again, no names mentioned.

We may be getting the air rotations but we are not getting the ice skating.

Joe

Ptichka · Dec 15, 2004

Hockeyfan, you're right. I somehow thought they could only do 2 combos in FS.

hockeyfan228 · Dec 15, 2004

Ptichka said:
Hockeyfan, you're right. I somehow thought they could only do 2 combos in FS.

They changed it this year to three combos -- one with up to three jumps, two limited to two jumps -- after the fiasco at GPF last year. IIRC, this brings it into line with the last 6.0 rules.

And still, Timothy Goebel managed to get no credit for a combo in GP this year, after performing two three-jump combos. So no matter what they do, skaters will always figure out a way to break the rules

Ptichka · Dec 15, 2004

hockeyfan228 said:
And still, Timothy Goebel managed to get no credit for a combo in GP this year, after performing two three-jump combos. So no matter what they do, skaters will always figure out a way to break the rules

I remember that. I think the problem is that CoP rules are too rigid. I think it would have been fair in Tim's case to just ignore the third jump of his second 3-jump combo. Since up to that point he was doing everything by the book - why not stop judging the element then. This way he'd still get credit for two jumps, but the third ("illegal") jump would not count.

hockeyfan228 · Dec 15, 2004

Ptichka said:
I remember that. I think the problem is that CoP rules are too rigid. I think it would have been fair in Tim's case to just ignore the third jump of his second 3-jump combo. Since up to that point he was doing everything by the book - why not stop judging the element then. This way he'd still get credit for two jumps, but the third ("illegal") jump would not count.

The reason I disagree is that last year the ISU stopped showing levels for spins, footwork, lifts, etc., because the judges admitted to overmarking high-level elements: they figured if it was an L3 (highest level last year), it must deserve a high GOE. If a skater performs a 3/3/2, I think that would influence the judges to award a higher GOE to compensate for the combo not counting. (It's bad enough that they still don't have the Program Elements scores down.)

If the skater did an extra 3/3, but fell on the second jump, then the skater could get +GOE on the basis of the first jump and no deduction for the fall, which would be an interesting ramification.

Skaters practice, practice, practice the same routines over and over until they are in muscle memory. They don't practice programs that violate the rules. When they start to improvise, there are all sorts of unexpected results: even under 6.0 Plushenko lost his Euro title by changing his program mid-stream to re-attempt the 3A.

There were rules about the maximum number of jumps and passes that should have counted legally in 6.0 as well, there was just no way to make the judges enforce them. The difference now is that this particular type of rule is being enforced.

CoP question

Mehdi

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