Disturbed by final results.... | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Disturbed by final results....

Vicky458

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
Wow Joesitz!
That is really scary to know. Now I am certain that under the presant organization of the COP there will be a HUGE scandal. What a shame for the sport and the skaters who have worked so hard. I certainly hope that each country's skating organizations demand video replays of "calls" made by the technical specialist! World's are going to be a mess!
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Vicky - There will be some disciplines that will be judged according to the CoP which on paper is the better of the two systems. I just feel that some judges who were brought up to believe in the glory of the state have not yet gotten that notion out of their system.

Joe
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Joesitz said:
Vicky - There will be some disciplines that will be judged according to the CoP which on paper is the better of the two systems. I just feel that some judges who were brought up to believe in the glory of the state have not yet gotten that notion out of their system.

Joe

Those judges are on both sides of the (ex) Berlin wall.

Vash
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Joesitz said:
Vicky - The Technical Specialist, whomever it is, is the most powerful official in the competition. He can single handily influence the judging.

Joe

Isn't it better to have 9 judges than ONE technical specialist influencing the outcome of the competition? Debbie Wilkes is one of the most biased commentators. How can anyone trust her to be objective in calling the elements? That is just an example.

Vash
 

katherine2001

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
Vash01 said:
Isn't it better to have 9 judges than ONE technical specialist influencing the outcome of the competition? Debbie Wilkes is one of the most biased commentators. How can anyone trust her to be objective in calling the elements? That is just an example.

Vash

And goodness knows, Scott Hamilton and some of the other North Americans who were outspoken about results in the last Olympics better not be made Technical Specialists either if having an opinion on whether somebody was robbed in the Olympics means that they are biased and can't be trusted. Can you trust any North Americans who had strong opinions on the outcome of the Olympic skating? I notice that these accusations are always against Russians. Of course, you can't trust those evil Russians who belong to the Evil Empire! :sheesh:

North Americans are always snow white and would never be anything less than fair, but that can't be said of people from former Communist countries ;)
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
According to the ISU documentation "ISU Judging System - Officials":
Duties of the Technical Specialist:
  • identifies and calls the performed elements;
  • identifies and calls correct Levels of Difficulty of the performed elements;
  • identifies illegal elements;
  • identifies the innovative element bonus.
  • Identifies and deletes additional elements

Duties of the Technical Controller
  • supervises and corrects (if necessary) the call of the Technical Specialists and the input of the names and correct Levels of Difficulty performed elements, however if both Technical Specialists [TS and Assistant TS] disagree with correction, their initial decision stays;
  • authorizes or corrects the deletion of elements;
  • authorizes or corrects the identification of illegal elements;
  • confirms or corrects innovative element bonus;
  • conrims the deletion of additional elements...

The calls of the Technical Specialist are supervised and corrected (if necessary) by the Technical Controller, however, if both Technical Specialists disagree with the corrections, their initial decision stays...

The Assistant Technical Specialist is also part of the decision making process...His/her advise is, however, asked in case of a discrepancy between the Technical Controller and the Technical Specialists.

In other words, if the Technical Specialist's boss thinks that the Technical Specialist has made a mistake, it's his/her official responsibility to make the correction. If they disagree, then the Assistant Technical Specialist breaks the tie.

It is not one person making all of the decisions with no oversight or no process to make a correction on the spot. In a case of disagreement, it is best two of three of the people who are trained specifically for the task and who are responsible to the ISU, not the Federations.
 

mpal2

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
It is not one person making all of the decisions with no oversight or no process to make a correction on the spot. In a case of disagreement, it is best two of three of the people who are trained specifically for the task and who are responsible to the ISU, not the Federations.
And we all know that the ISU is squeaky clean and not politically motivated at all... In fact, it is so much harder for 2 or 3 people to collaborate than 7-9 people. :agree:

Pardon me for being cynical, but we have a sport that is more complicated than really fast crossovers being dominated by someone who only did that for competition. What does he understand about figure/artistic skating? The ISU has also proven time after time that they only want to cover up problems instead of solving them. They have even passed a rule that individuals involved in running the competitions cannot publicly make any negative comments about it or the results. I could go on and on, but I'll stop the rant short.

It's true that we would be in trouble if everything was left up to the federations, but the ISU is one big joke and not much better.
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
mpal2 said:
And we all know that the ISU is squeaky clean and not politically motivated at all... In fact, it is so much harder for 2 or 3 people to collaborate than 7-9 people. :agree:
Right, forgive me. I had forgotten how the ISU sends its Technical Controllers and Specialists to administer the Tri Cities Dog Pairs skating competitions, until those officials prove that their results are keeping with the ISU's agenda, and that they can spend years rising through the ranks, afraid to come up with any other result or they'll lose their spot at "prime" competitions. Because of course that agenda would have nothing to do with proving to Rogge that Figure Skating should remain an Olympic sport, showing that ISU officials can judge properly while the Federations judges cannot, so that they can get control of the judging panel as well, or future TV contracts to subsidize speed skating. Not to mention the hundreds of times we've used the criteria and technology to prove that their calls are wrong -- wrong level, the jump was really rotated and shouldn't have been downgraded -- while nine judges have proven capable of scoring Program Components properly.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
In America, any athlete who wins a laurel leaf is lucky to meet the President if the Prez has the time. It is not national policy to win.

Joe
 

mpal2

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
hockeyfan228

You forgot to quote the last part of my post where I also implied corruption in the federations. After all isn't international sport about pissing rights between countries? I told you I was cynical and that I'm not very impressed with the honesty of any of them at this point.

My point is that it's hard harder to get collusion between a larger group than a smaller group. So the smaller group actually concerns me because the ISU does not appear to have an appeals process at this point if the technical controllers/specialists call things wrong. It appears that the skaters just have to accept an unfair call and deal with getting screwed. I would love to see a formal appeals process in place before the results are final. If there is one, I haven't found it. If you know of one, please direct me to the link.

Speedy made a further a** of himself IMO during the summer Olympics gymanstics fiasco by spouting off on how skating fixed it's problems but gymnastics at least had a formal appeals process when a wrong value was given. The problem there was whether it had been followed or not.
 
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sk8er1964

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
katherine2001 said:
And goodness knows, Scott Hamilton and some of the other North Americans who were outspoken about results in the last Olympics better not be made Technical Specialists either if having an opinion on whether somebody was robbed in the Olympics means that they are biased and can't be trusted. Can you trust any North Americans who had strong opinions on the outcome of the Olympic skating? I notice that these accusations are always against Russians. Of course, you can't trust those evil Russians who belong to the Evil Empire! :sheesh:

North Americans are always snow white and would never be anything less than fair, but that can't be said of people from former Communist countries ;)

You quoted this when you made the above post:

Vash01 said:
Isn't it better to have 9 judges than ONE technical specialist influencing the outcome of the competition? Debbie Wilkes is one of the most biased commentators. How can anyone trust her to be objective in calling the elements? That is just an example.

Vash

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but I am confused about where you are coming from. As far as I can tell, the original poster (Vash01) was saying that Wilkes, a North American, was too biased to be a caller. Yet you are saying (please correct me if I'm wrong) that people are saying that the Russians will be biased while the Americans and Canadians will be fair.

From the start, I've thought that the technical specialist aspect was the weak link in this system (aside from the annonymous judging). I know they do have a check and balance, but maybe they need to have a system where three callers, from different regions, independently call and the majority ruling is used for judging. Just a brainstorming session thought.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
sk8er1964 said:
From the start, I've thought that the technical specialist aspect was the weak link in this system (aside from the annonymous judging). I know they do have a check and balance, but maybe they need to have a system where three callers, from different regions, independently call and the majority ruling is used for judging. Just a brainstorming session thought.
The technical specialist aspect, imo, is a powerful judgemental position to be in. The slightest curve could downgrade a jump, and if he is not watching with the eyes of an eagle, there is no accountability and his assistant may not object to his call. If he should be dishonest, then there is a terrible crime committed to the skater or a blessing to another.

The only way I can see this system working without assumptions is to NAME THE JUDGES AND THEIR NATIONALITIES. If all the nationalities are fair in the judging there is no problem. It's that simple.

As the British would say, it's not if you win, it's how you play the game. That should also apply to officials.

Joe
 

dawnk

Spectator
Joined
Dec 5, 2004
Disappointed....

I knew it wouldn't take long for these judges to figure out how to manipulate the system. Has this marking system been reviewed by the IOC? The ISU has always insulted skating fans by asking them to believe that skaters are equally accomplished in every aspect of ice dancing by placing the dancers in the exact
same order from the OD right through to the free dance. That has changed, at least for the time being. But now, Chait & Zaknofsky (sp?)are being given higher technical scores for l than Dubreuil & Lauzon. That is a joke IMO. Although C&Z have improved, they still do not have the fine edges, extension & body line of D & L. The judging will not be fair until Federations are no longer involved. But even if the judges are hired by the ISU that org. is so corrupt that the judges would probably be bought.
 
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