Are programs made for COP as entertaining?

Longhornliz · Dec 18, 2004

During Johnny Weirs performance at the World Cup of figure skating Dick Button made an interesting comment. He was talking about how the new code of points has motivated all the skaters to add variations to spins to make them more challenging, specifically he pointed out how Johnny did a change of edge in his camel spin. Dick said that the move had become almost required, but that adding the change of edge made the spin less beautiful and appear less centered and fast.

I agree... It seems like so many skaters are adding variations to almost every staple in the routine. Sometimes the variations are not very innovative, but sometimes like in jeffery buttles sit spins they are very pleasing. I cant decide if I would rather see a very well executed but simplistic manuever or a more complicated one with a variation that is not performed as well?

What do yall think?

soogar · Dec 18, 2004

I think the COE spins look horrible (ITA with Dick Button on this). The whole point of a spin is to be fast and centered and when the skater changes edges it really ruins the effect of the spin. Surely a skater can show mastery of edges via footwork or spiral variations rather than mucking up a spin. And I actually think that weak spinners tend to add difficulty by doing a COE verses just adding more spin positions like Johnny and Jeff do.

Overall I like COP b/c the programs actually have something more than crossovers. I don't like it at all for pairs b/c the programs now look extremely scary. Before this season, I've never seen pairs have the problems with the lifts like the couples have been having this season. All of the pair with the exception of the Chinese and Z&S are having problems with lifts. And Hunt and Don have that lift where he's rotating in one direction and then changes direction with her in the air. First of all, they didn't do that well at all and I was petrified that he was going to trip over his feet on that transition b.c it looked so awkward. I think pairs is difficult enough without encouraging pairs teams to add tons of crazy transitions.

Cati · Dec 19, 2004

soogar said:
All of the pair with the exception of the Chinese and Z&S are having problems with lifts.

Shen/Zhao are also having problems with lifts. Watch Zhao's feet during S/Z's Skate Canada SP and Bompard LP.

Matt · Dec 19, 2004

I like the programmes under CoP b/c it forces skaters (especially ones who don't give a hoot about their presentation) to be a little more original with choreography, presentation, and the way they set up their programmes. The problem arises is when everyone begins to copy another skater's "unique variation". If Weir were the only skater doing the COE sit and camel spins, it would be fantastic b/c it would be a move unique to only him that you would look forward to in his programmes. The only problem is that that COE is such as easy way to get one's spins upgraded under CoP that everybody has adopted it and it is no longer unique to just Weir

thvudragon · Dec 19, 2004

Cati said:
Shen/Zhao are also having problems with lifts. Watch Zhao's feet during S/Z's Skate Canada SP and Bompard LP.

He's always had this problem. It used to be much worse. There's far less scratching now though when he turns during lifts.

sk8m8 · Dec 19, 2004

perhaps the problem lays in the fact that the skaters are attempting skills above what they have mastered in order to attempt to up their scores. Many of the competitors are doing "level 2-3 spins" while also having execution marks deducted from them, rather than doing a great "level 1 "spin where they recieve bonus for exection and position.

I generally think the programs are more interesting, though. I've seen skaters "get out of their comfort zone" more and more when it comes to attempting to do "more interesting" variations. Take Irina...now I don't particularly care for her Beilmann "everything", however, it sure does beat the same spin, executed the same way, year after year. She took an element where she is strong (spiral on a deep edge) and included another strong element ( Beilmann position showing strength and flexibilty) and came up with a winning combination that both showcases these strengths and "hides" a weakness ( lack of extention). She's certainly been one skater that made CoP work for her. I also believe that Irina takes some "level 2 spins" and adds greatly to them by centering them and making them faster, rather than attempting some "level 3" spin that isn't either...smart, smart, smart.

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 19, 2004

soogar said:
I think the COE spins look horrible (ITA with Dick Button on this). The whole point of a spin is to be fast and centered and when the skater changes edges it really ruins the effect of the spin. Surely a skater can show mastery of edges via footwork or spiral variations rather than mucking up a spin. And I actually think that weak spinners tend to add difficulty by doing a COE verses just adding more spin positions like Johnny and Jeff do.

This would kill Lucinda Ruh. Changing edges during a spin is not as easy as you make it to be. Jeff and Johnny, btw, have mastery of edges via footwork as well as spinning mastery.

Joe

soogar · Dec 19, 2004

ITA with you s8m8 about Irina. Irina is one skater I've never been into, yet I like her programs this year b.c of the way she has utilized COP to her advantage.

I also like the way COP is forcing MK to try different things. That aspect of it makes skating more interesting.

I don't like it for pairs at all. Maybe to counteract pairs teams trying things they aren't ready for, the system should impose huge deductions if the lift elements are not performed well. Like not even give Don and Hunt credit for that scary change direction lift. I know it's harsh, but pairs is so dangerous and the ladies are unprotected up there that the lifts should be spot on with NO struggle on the man's part. That will force teams to put in lifts that they are secure with verses putting lifts in competition that are iffy at best in practice.

mzheng · Dec 19, 2004

thvudragon said:
He's always had this problem. It used to be much worse. There's far less scratching now though when he turns during lifts.

Yeah, indeed. I've noticed this since last season. He even scratching/slip at the shows. I watched in one of COI show that he slipped several times during the lifts. I start to worry about that. fortunately I didn't see this during GPF's SP and LP. Reporting was he is doing a lot of off ice strenghth trainning now because of his age.

bleuchick · Dec 19, 2004

soogar said:
I think the COE spins look horrible (ITA with Dick Button on this). The whole point of a spin is to be fast and centered and when the skater changes edges it really ruins the effect of the spin. Surely a skater can show mastery of edges via footwork or spiral variations rather than mucking up a spin. And I actually think that weak spinners tend to add difficulty by doing a COE verses just adding more spin positions like Johnny and Jeff do.

Overall I like COP b/c the programs actually have something more than crossovers. I don't like it at all for pairs b/c the programs now look extremely scary. Before this season, I've never seen pairs have the problems with the lifts like the couples have been having this season. All of the pair with the exception of the Chinese and Z&S are having problems with lifts. And Hunt and Don have that lift where he's rotating in one direction and then changes direction with her in the air. First of all, they didn't do that well at all and I was petrified that he was going to trip over his feet on that transition b.c it looked so awkward. I think pairs is difficult enough without encouraging pairs teams to add tons of crazy transitions.

The problem with pairs lift is not COP but the technique of the male skaters. Unfortunately, this has been the case even in the 6.0 system for ALOT of pairs teams. Most of the skaters who used to do the least difficult lifts in the past are the one having problems because in the past they got away with it and now they can't. I have seen some pretty difficult lasso axel lifts in the years of the 6.0 system than now....some even with variations at different angles and signature moves too!

I am not suprised by the falls and who is falling. Not to sound like I am blaming skaters but I get angry when I read post in which COP is blamed for the falls. It is the technique!!!.

It is about time, fans and judges paid attention to the male technique rather than the man( though that is nice too... :biggrin:

).

bleuchick · Dec 19, 2004

I like COP but hate the fact we don't know the judges' names.

Question - what is it about COP that is makes a skater comeback from 7th to 2nd? Why did this never happen in the 6.0 system. Surely, we did not need a scandal in order to have movement in ranking.

PrincessLeppard · Dec 19, 2004

In the 6.0 system, you received 1/3 of your points from the short program, and that was a pre-determined number. If you finished first, you got .5 points; second, 1 point; third, 1.5 points, etc. So if you were 7th in the SP, you had 3.5 points. To win, you would have to win the free skate, and get your 1 point, giving you 4.5 points. But also, the person who finished first would have to finish fourth or worse, the person who came in second would have to finish third or worse, etc. I just don't think you are going to see that kind of meltdown from the top three skaters all at once.

Kateri · Dec 20, 2004

I love COP, but what is really bugging me at the moment is the way it's affecting some skaters' choreo.

Take Irina - she does 5 Biellmans in her short programme alone!! Enough already!! The minute I see her start pulling her leg up, it's "Not again!"
But she gets so many points for it, she feels she has to.
It's such a nice SP apart from that.

Kateri

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 20, 2004

Kateri said:
I love COP, but what is really bugging me at the moment is the way it's affecting some skaters' choreo.Take Irina - she does 5 Biellmans in her short programme alone!! Enough already!! The minute I see her start pulling her leg up, it's "Not again!"
But she gets so many points for it, she feels she has to.
It's such a nice SP apart from that.Kateri

I don't know of any limitations on spins. Is there a Zayak rule on doing the same spin more than once? I don't know the base score for that acrobatic spin. I assume it has the highest base points (not that I agree it should) and when done well, it gets +3s. So doing more than one Bielman spin will be increasing total points for all those contorionist skaters. Good for them. Maybe one of them will be doing a Flying Bielman :rofl:

Joe

floskate · Dec 20, 2004

I think the men are making really great programs. I adore Johnny, Jeff and Eman - awesome programs and everything sems to be integrated quite well.

The ladies however seem to be highlighting their new tricks more, which can be a little distracting, but if it means MK does new spin positions for the first time in years then it has to be good!

I have no problem with the CoE on spins, a slow spin can be just as beautiful as a fast one IMO.

Oh Kat: ITA about the Biellmanns too :sheesh:

ladybug · Dec 21, 2004

Except for the fact that a skater who makes an error in the SP call pull themselves up by having a good Lp, I don't like COP. I know the skaters are doing more but I don't think the programs are as pretty. The skaters can't get into the music as much when they are attempting all Level 2's and 3's and trying to do 7 or 8 jumps. That is probably why we see so much falling lately. It is just too too much. I would rather see a beautiful program filled with emotion and done well with deep edges and centered spins. Now so many of the spins travel. At Marshall's Irena's last spin traveled to one side and then back again. She never did that before. I just can't like what COP is doing to skating.

Ladybug

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 21, 2004

ladybug said:
Except for the fact that a skater who makes an error in the SP call pull themselves up by having a good Lp, I don't like COP. I know the skaters are doing more but I don't think the programs are as pretty. The skaters can't get into the music as much when they are attempting all Level 2's and 3's and trying to do 7 or 8 jumps. That is probably why we see so much falling lately. It is just too too much. I would rather see a beautiful program filled with emotion and done well with deep edges and centered spins. Now so many of the spins travel. At Marshall's Irena's last spin traveled to one side and then back again. She never did that before. I just can't like what COP is doing to skating. Ladybug

Interesting points you raised, ladybug. We are seeing so many tricks nowadays and transitions are limited to a three turn here and there. Transitions slow skaters down but they are beautiful to watch. Cross Overs give the skater speed. Jumps are easier if there is speed. A skater has to make so many decisions to fill a program. Not easy to please everyone.

Joe

mpal2 · Dec 21, 2004

ladybug said:
Now so many of the spins travel. At Marshall's Irena's last spin traveled to one side and then back again. She never did that before. I just can't like what COP is doing to skating.

Ladybug

Irina has always had a tendency to travel in her spins. Granted there is going to always be some traveling involved, but Irina's spins never seemed to have as tight a circle as other skaters. I remember several sloppy spins. I don't think this is a COP problem. It's just Irina. I always felt that she sacrificed centering for speed. I love fast spins, but I love centered ones more so her spins seemed to jump out at me and bug me a little.

She can have some great spins and they're incredible when she gets them fast and centered. But when she's off, the centering is the first to go.

Matt · Dec 22, 2004

Joesitz said:
I don't know of any limitations on spins. Is there a Zayak rule on doing the same spin more than once? I don't know the base score for that acrobatic spin. I assume it has the highest base points (not that I agree it should) and when done well, it gets +3s. So doing more than one Bielman spin will be increasing total points for all those contorionist skaters. Good for them. Maybe one of them will be doing a Flying Bielman

Joe

Quick! Somebody call Lucinda Ruh! We've got a project for her!

TwizzlerS · Dec 23, 2004

I like CoP much better than the 6.0 system, but I agree that skaters can get too caught up in trying to rack up points, that the choreography suffers.

In dance, CoP and racking up points motive has made so many routines look the same. Several dance teams are doing a lift where the woman goes into a split and holds one of her legs while the man rotates around. Another common lift is where the woman wraps her legs around the man holding one of her blades and is upside down. And circular dance sequences are starting to look the same. I'm hoping things will sort themselves out and allow creativity to flow again.

Are programs made for COP as entertaining?

Longhornliz

soogar

Cati

Matt

thvudragon

sk8m8

Joesitz (RIP)

soogar

mzheng

bleuchick

bleuchick

PrincessLeppard

~ Evgeni's Sex Bomb ~

Kateri

Joesitz (RIP)

floskate

ladybug

Joesitz (RIP)

mpal2

Matt

TwizzlerS

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