Have the Gang of Four Hit Their Peak? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Have the Gang of Four Hit Their Peak?

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Slutskaya : This year, I think she's skating with a sense of freedom that she hasn't had in the past, when the pressure was on her to win, win, win or to prove that she is a Navka-like dramatic skater. She's maximizing her strengths and, in particular, downplaying her weaknesses, and her LP is relatively light and upbeat, which suits her style.

However, despite the high scores at GPF and high levels of difficulty on her non-jump elements, she received negative GOE on four of seven jumps, she downgraded a 3Lz to a 2Lz, and her combinations were 3S/2Lo/2T and 3T/2T; only Pfaneuf had weaker jump content, because the other four skaters had three combinations/sequences.

Her execution was much stronger at CoR, but despite the 3S/3Lo/2T, she also downgraded a combo and her total base for combos/seqs was on .4 higher than at GPF. At CC, she did a 3/2/2 instead of the 3/3/2 she landed at CoR. If you look at all the Ladies who attempted three combos/seq in their programs, the base scores look like this:

Rochette TEB and Rochette CC: 24.1
Ando GPF: 22.7
Rochette GPF: 21.9
Arakawa NHK: 21.6
Onda NHK: 21.4
Onda SC and Slutskaya CC: 20.6
Nikodinov SA: 20.1
Slutskaya CoR: 19.8
Slutskaya GPF: 19.4
Arakawa GPF: 15.8
Corwin NHK: 14.4
Drei TEB: 14.3

Ando's NHK base for combos was 18.7, and she "only" had two of them.

She hasn't matched her all-time peak on the technical side, so I don't think she's hit her peak, which would combine the freedom and the jumps. She could be so much better if she attempted to stretch her leg and point her toe throughout her program. Many other women who have relatively muscular legs -- Rochette, Drei, Winkler, Maniachenko, Denkova, Hughes, Nikodinov, Liashenko, even Cohen for example -- and not "ready made" line -- Navka, Kostner, Sebestyen, Chait, Arakawa -- manage to do it. Even Suguri does it more. Slutskaya can do it, because she does in her sit spin in the final combination.

Cohen I saw her get close at qualis in Dortmund. There was still a little room for a little more -- the attack she showed in her SP. If her back holds up, she can increase her technical content by landing a 3/3, and getting the same height in all of her jumps that she gets from the 3F. (She already gets distance in most of her solo jumps and the first jump in her combos.) I would consider her at her peak if she did well in the qualis and SP, and then performed a LP in a non cheeze-fest in which the jumps were landed, but which was skated with passion, and not as if she was being sent to the executioner.

Arakawa Her LP at Worlds was the greatest LP performance I've ever seen. I'm not sure she can surpass that in any one performance, but I would say she has peaked when she can perform a SP and a LP at nearly the same level. Her programs this year provide a base; her Madame Butterfly SP is so much better than last year's, and the footwork is fabulous.

Kwan I haven't seen a program in the last three-four years that matches the programs she did between Nagano and SLC, let alone from the Salome/Taj Mahal period. I think at this point she's too much of an institution, and mentally a professional skater who still competes. That she's given her NA audiences years and years of consistent performances and has kept up a level of skating that has been matched by only a few -- Browning? Boitano? Yamaguchi? -- with finish, polish, and commitment is extraordinary, but I think that day-in, day-out consistency and professionalism is antithetical to focusing on and peaking in competition.

The only exception to that may be Plushenko, but he showed more of an artistic range in his Dortmund competition and exhibition (three) skates than Kwan has in her entire career. Part of that is expectations: Plushenko's base appreciates his programs, and comes to shows to see the new and different. Kwan's fan base -- the show-going base -- expects to see a more limited range of Kwan. As does Disney and Chevrolet. Imagine if Kwan performed an avante garde number like Denkova/Staviyski's exhibition at Worlds.
 
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Hikaru

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 23, 2004
mzheng said:
I agree with this one. I thought that Onda just should be like herself not to try to potrait ballenina, she would be a much enjoyable skater.

ITA! Yoshie's style is not like a ballet dancer. She tries hard to be one, but still looks sort of stiff in some positions. She should skate a more modern program. I could picture her skating to music from Bond, or from any japanese band like L'ar~en~ciel.
 

LimeZest

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 29, 2004
Since everyone has already made substantial and wonderful comments... I'll just add my very small cup of tea.

Arawaka I have no idea if the change with Tarasova was totally a worthy one but I suspect that last year's was kinda like too exciting for everyone. She had fire in her eyes, a very competitive drive and she won it... makes me think that her move was a kick in the butt, she was overjoyed and the partnership was only 2 weeks old. Now that she has spent time with Tarasova, we've seen improvement, not in expression though, no clean performances... So I'm gonna wait til Worlds (hopes Japanese federation lets her) or Four Continents.

Cohen I have no idea...

Slutskaya Welcome back! I love it when a skater is able to disguise his own weaknesses and is able to make it work to his advantage. On a very superficial point of view, I love her pants!

Kwan For the last couple for seasons, I would call her a breath of fresh air... she's almost voidy!
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
eyria said:
Irina is still Irina. She's reworked her programs a bit for COP, but is fundamentally unchanged. However, she is skating better than ever this year. I agree with several others that her form, line, and presentation are not as classic and perfect as many of the other ladies. But she probably makes up for it with her speed and the difficulty of her jumps and spins. To me, Irina will never be one of the greats of the sport, but she is very good at what she does. I think she is definitely the favorite at Worlds this year and could be one of the contenders in Torino.

Irina has her strengths and they are different from those of Michelle, Sasha, and a few others. Her strength is in the power of her jumps, faster spins, and overall speed. She is 5 time European champion, an Olympic silver medallist, a world champion, and has 3 world silver medals (IIRC 1998, 2000 and 2001). She was the first lady to land a 3 lutz-3loop combination, and the first lady to land two 3-3 combinations in a competition (GPF 2000). She may not appear like a great skater to you because you are locked into thinking that a skater must have classical lines. Of course everyone is entitled to a definition/opinion. By that definition, Midori Ito would certainly not be considered a great skater. Yet many will disagree with you about Midori. IMO Irina is already one of the greats of the sport. Whether she wins another world title or not, she has established herself as one of the great skaters of her generation. She pushed others to do more difficult jump combinations. To me the greatest thing about her is the commitment to the sport which has become so obvious since her recent illness. If at all anything, it has made her an even better skater. That, to me, is a mark of greatness.

Vash
 

VIETgrlTerifa

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
hockeyfan228 said:
The only exception to that may be Plushenko, but he showed more of an artistic range in his Dortmund competition and exhibition (three) skates than Kwan has in her entire career. Part of that is expectations: Plushenko's base appreciates his programs, and comes to shows to see the new and different. Kwan's fan base -- the show-going base -- expects to see a more limited range of Kwan. As does Disney and Chevrolet. Imagine if Kwan performed an avante garde number like Denkova/Staviyski's exhibition at Worlds.

IMO, Plushenko is one of the best showmans skating has ever seen. He can take an ordinary program without much skating, and sell it like nobody else. But, I don't think he's versatile really. I haven't ever seen a Plushenko program that didn't have him playing to the audience/judges and being a showman.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
My take on 'show' skating is the same as picking out your favorite movie star. Not everyone is going to love your take on favorites. Some people love Meryl Streep some people don't.

I think when we are selecting particular skaters to speak of their style of skating, those very same skaters are going to be loved by some and disliked by others. It's called 'personal taste'. There are many skaters whose styles are not pleasing to me. Sometimes these skaters win gold medals. I am not impressed. It does not take any of the dislike of their style away from me.

However, there is a Sport involved in figure skating and that means content of program. However much the content of the skater is, it is the main factor for determining gold medals. The presentation mark simply means that the contents of program was executed in the text book manner. The sport's undefined style of the skater is basically that subjective decision for alloting exra point(s) under CoP. IMO, it is the judges last factoring for GOLD, and it includes his personal taste and personal biases..

But that's what scoring Figure Skating is all about. Isn't it?

Love Evgeni; Hate Evgeni; Love Kwan; Hate Kwan. It's in the minds of the beholders (and judges :laugh: )

Joe
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
OK, I just Googled "voidy slang definition." Two references came up one was from theskateblade.com, which said:

"Voidy (adjective) - No one is really quite sure what voidy exactly refers to, but it generally means a performance or skater that is unusual, with sedative effects and slightly suggestive movements. For another definition of voidy, as well as definitions of other phrases that you might see around the net, visit the FAQ section of FSUniverse."

The other was a refernece to Shizuka Arakawa as "the Voidy Swan."

Mathman :rock:
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I guess it is an adverb of void meaning empty? In other words, the skater has no emotion while performing.

If I am correct, I could name at least 100 skaters off the top of my head but then someone else could name another 100 off the top of his/her head that are different than mine. It's all so a matter of who is your favorite and whom do you dislike personally the most. Has nothing to do with skating skills.

Joe
 

attyfan

Custom Title
Medalist
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
"Voidy"

Directly from FSU's "FAQ":


Void
Has several meanings - And one day there shall be more I am sure.
Official Skating wise Explanation from Skate Guv:
"Oh gawd that's a tough one to define, better ask christopher dean !!"
It stems from me and sharps watching old documentary about T&D where we pee'd ourselves laughing at the following quote from Chris, which he said, erm, very dramatically "....and suddenly, we found ourselves in this...hole...this huge, big VOID !! We could do anything we wanted to, our only limits were our own imagination !! It's like floating free, it's like being in outer space !!"
"So we use the term "Voidy" to describe anything in skating which is a drama fest ala Dean. You know the sort of thing, angst expressions, hands outstretch, weird programs with weird music, skaters who clearly think they are skating as ar-TEESTES and creating an arty masterpiece...it's all "voidy"
 

Piel

On Edge
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
attyfan said:
Directly from FSU's "FAQ":



It stems from me and sharps watching old documentary about T&D where we pee'd ourselves laughing at the following quote from Chris, which he said, erm,
Rather appropriate as one of the medical terms for "peeing" is to void. :rofl:
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
VIETgrlTerifa said:
IMO, Plushenko is one of the best showmans skating has ever seen. He can take an ordinary program without much skating, and sell it like nobody else. But, I don't think he's versatile really. I haven't ever seen a Plushenko program that didn't have him playing to the audience/judges and being a showman.
Last year at Worlds, he performed a Flamenco program in the SP, with Spanish dance inflection that many ice dancers couldn't match, a Tribute to Nijinkski, which had a different tempo and feeling, a serious exhibition program to Marton's variations on Beethoven's Fifth, a duel gender comedy piece, and a program that centered on a highly-embroidered footwork pass that seemed to have about 1000 steps. Apart from having explosive footwork passes, they were quite different and showed quite a range. None of them were like Sex Bomb or the exhibition program he did wearing the big head (I don't know what it was called), or the episodic drama of St. Petersburg 300. Plushenko might be a showman, but just taking his exhibitions, he gave very different shows, and showed very different senses of comic timing.

I started to like him when I saw Sex Bomb, because it isn't your average skater who has such a public sense of humor about himself.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
hockeyfan228 said:
The only exception to that may be Plushenko, but he showed more of an artistic range in his Dortmund competition and exhibition (three) skates than Kwan has in her entire career.
Well, I think there is another way to look at it. Plushenko does do a lot of prancing and posing along with his athletic leaps into the air. But when it comes down to it, if it is Flamenco dancing that we want to see, why put on skates?

Michelle, on the other hand (IMHO) has uniquely captured the soul of the sport and art form that is figure skating. She does not try to be a flamenco dancer -- on ice. She does not try to be a comedian -- on ice. She does not try to be a mime -- on ice. She does not try to be an opera singer or a chorus line girl or a tap dancer or a clown or a stripper or Gene Kelly or a Punch-and-Judy show -- on ice. All of these are legitimate art forms (well, maybe not miming so much, LOL), but what do they have to do with ice skating?

To me, Michelle has taken figure skating to new heights without compromising its core and its raison d'etre.

Mathman
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Interestng comments, Mathman. I certainly agree that it is not necessary to imitate something from another art form unless it's done in 'show skating'.
I've never really been impressed with the journey figure skating has taken as an artform. For most skaters relying on another artform is the only way they can express the 'character of the music' requirement.

Puccin wrote some beautiful meolodies: La Boheme
some dramatic melodies: Tosca
some triumphant melodies: Turandot

With those melodies why can't a skater convey something of themselves?
I think it has to do with age. Maybe that's why I enjoy older skaters who have experienced a lot more in life than a teenager.

Joe
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
Correct me.

Under old 6.0 system, the one of the critirias in presentation department is 'skates with musical phrase'. Is there a 'potraiting the character in the music skater skated to' ?
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Mathman said:
Michelle, on the other hand (IMHO) has uniquely captured the soul of the sport and art form that is figure skating. She does not try to be a flamenco dancer -- on ice. She does not try to be a comedian -- on ice. She does not try to be a mime -- on ice. She does not try to be an opera singer or a chorus line girl or a tap dancer or a clown or a stripper or Gene Kelly or a Punch-and-Judy show -- on ice. All of these are legitimate art forms (well, maybe not miming so much, LOL), but what do they have to do with ice skating?

They have little to do with ice skating, but a lot to do with figure skating (as it exists now, figureless):

Program Components:

Performance: "is the involvement of the skater/couple/teams physically, emotionally, and intellectually as they translate the intent of the music and choreography."

Choreography/Composition: "An intentional developed, and/or arrangement of all types [emphasis mine] of movements according to the principals of proportion, unity, space, pattern, structure, and phrasing.

"Criteria:
*Purpose (idea, concept, vision)
*Proportion (equal weight of parts)
*Unity (purposeful threading)
*Utilization of public and private space [I have no idea what private space is supposed to mean in this context]
*Pattern and ice coverage
*Phrasing and form (movements and parts structured to match the phrasing of the music)
*Originality of purpose, movement, and design"

Interpretation: "The personal and creative translation of the music to movement on the ice

"Criteria:
*Effortless movement in time to the music
*Expression of the music's style, character, and rhythm
*Use of *finesse to reflect nuances of the music

"*Finess is the skater's refined, artful manipulation of nuances. Nuances are the personal artistic ways of bringing subtle variation to the intensity, tempo and dynamics of the music made by the composer and/or the musicians."

There's an entire discipline of figure skating called "Ice Dancing," in which specific dances and dance rhythms are required to be translated into figure skating, and, in my opinion, Pairs and Singles skating has become more interesting the more those disciplines adopt Ice Dance pairs lifts, footwork, and non-crossover methods of creating blade speed into their programs.

Plushenko has chosen a wider range of music to interpret and physical styles with which to interpret it. This obviously interests him more than it interests Kwan, because surely she has the clout to choose another path. That doesn't mean that everyone should have to enjoy or respect Plushenko's skating or style, or that he's perfect, any more than they have to Kwan's. Nor would I say that he's been successful or equally successful at every music style.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Well, the ISU division that these sports fall under is called "figure skating AND ice dance" -- two separate sports. Of the two, modern figure skating (without figures) is much the more popular. Many question whether ice dancing should be an Olympic sport at all. In ice dancing, yes, performers are expected to skate to particular dance rhythms and to incorporate movements and steps appropriate to these ballroom staples.

I do not know why pairs skating is not more popular. It is the hardest, the most exciting and the most romantic of the three disciplines within figure skating. Yet nobody cares much. The cheesefests, for instance -- which have no other purpose than to attract as large a live and television audience as possible -- only have men and ladies.

I think the men have a special burden. There is nothing particularly pretty about a man just skating along. Even if you put him in a fancy costume and mousse up his hair -- so what? So in order to hold the interest of the audience, men must either perform prodigious athletic feats or else go the show biz route. Personally I like Plushenko for his quads and I like Matt Savoie, Evan Lysecek and Vakhtang Murvanidze for their showmanship.

Women, on the other hand...I don't know...there's just something about them.:)

When Dorothy Hamill skates I do not expect her to do any triple jumps. I do not expect her suddenly to break into a rumba (even if she is skating to Latin music), or to get jiggy with the funk, or to put on a big papier mache head.

Still, I could watch her skate all day long, and I don’t see anything in the ISU rules for choreography and musical interpretation (quoted above) that make me want to change my mind.

Just my personal preference, I guess.

Mathman
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Performance: "is the involvement of the skater/couple/teams physically, emotionally, and intellectually as they translate the intent of the music and choreography."

I think it was this 'intent of the music' which prompted my use of the word 'character'. I know we had a big discussion on this some time back, and even a well known judge came in to give his views.

IMO, the intent of the music for La Boheme, is to follow that story. I don't think this should be in figure skating, jmo. It has very young skaters trying to be like poor Mimi. Or Odette, or Tosca, or Napoleon. (I do get a kick out of it in Show skating.)

This is what I prefer: Interpretation: "The personal and creative translation of the music to movement on the ice

I just don't see anything personal or creative in copying the original story. Just give me the skater's personal take on the music without the story.

Joe
 
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