What's your vote on Sasha's move?

SkateFan4Life · Dec 29, 2004

RealtorGal said:
I've been thinking about Robin Wagner. She was fortunate that in Sarah, she had a top tier skater that no one really expected to see at the top of the podium. That was of great advantage to Sarah and Robin. In Sasha, it's the opposite: a skater that everyone expected to see at the top of the podium but has never gotten there.

Good point, RealtorGal. The media pretty much left Sarah Hughes alone. She wasn't a media star up until she won the gold medal at Salt Lake City, as she had been overshadowed by Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, and Naomi Nari Nam. Hughes quietly rose to the top, with little fanfare. It's certainly a different story with Sasha, who trains and competes with the media spotlight fully on her.

euterpe · Dec 29, 2004

Sarah Hughes saw the top of a podium just twice: Skate Canada 2001 and SLC 2002. In both cases, the two top skaters, Kwan and Slutskaya, had to make mistakes to put her there.

One of the problems with Sarah's skating was that she pretty much skated inside herself, very controlled, very inward. SLC was the only time I ever saw her let herself go and just all-out skate, and that was because after finishing 4th in the SP, she didn't think she could win. Sarah always said she didn't go to a competition to finish second, that she came to win, and maybe that was what kept her inside her shell and made her skate conservatively. So she wound up for the most part finishing 2nd or 3rd.

I see the same pattern with Sasha at a major competition: too tight, too controlled, too emotionless, too TENSE. And it does her in every time.

R.D. · Dec 29, 2004

It seems to be a trend with skaters...when skaters really want to win (and they are in such a position), they'll usually go conservative to prevent making any mistakes. Usually when that happens, someone else with the goal just to come and skate all-out comes and blows them away. I've seen this happen to Kwan with Hughes in the 2002 Olympics, and to Cohen with Arakawa in 2004 Worlds. I'm sure there are a few other instances that I either haven't seen or forgot to mention. I wonder if there is something to get out of this...

Warning: the following is IN MY OPINION only

Maybe: It's OK to want to win, but don't put it in the front of your mind. Possibly finding what motivates you to keep on going (whatever that may be) and letting that show in your performance will work out?

R.D. · Dec 29, 2004

I see the same pattern with Sasha at a major competition: too tight, too controlled, too emotionless, too TENSE. And it does her in every time.

Definitely. And, IMO, as long as she keeps on wanting to win, this will continue to happen. This is why I don't think she'll win nats or worlds; she still seems to have this "win or fail" mentality. That doesn't seem to be a good mindset for figure skating.

P.S. Maybe having a rough SP will bring her out in the freeskate? Just food for thought...

GlitterTwist · Dec 29, 2004

Red Dog said:
It seems to be a trend with skaters...when skaters really want to win (and they are in such a position), they'll usually go conservative to prevent making any mistakes. Usually when that happens, someone else with the goal just to come and skate all-out comes and blows them away. I've seen this happen to Kwan with Hughes in the 2002 Olympics, and to Cohen with Arakawa in 2004 Worlds. I'm sure there are a few other instances that I either haven't seen or forgot to mention. I wonder if there is something to get out of this...

This was also what happened to MK with Tara at the 1998 Olys

Red Dog said:
P.S. Maybe having a rough SP will bring her out in the freeskate? Just food for thought...

Maybe that would be just the thing. Sasha doesn't usually have problems skating a fiery short program. 2002 Olys, her Short Program was amazing! And several times she's performed Malaguena near to perfection :love:

But when she's sitting in the top spot going into the long program is when her nerves really get to her. Maybe seeing herself in 2nd or 3rd at Nats will do her some good =)

R.D. · Dec 29, 2004

Maybe that would be just the thing. Sasha doesn't usually have problems skating a fiery short program. 2002 Olys, her Short Program was amazing! And several times she's performed Malaguena near to perfection But when she's sitting in the top spot going into the long program is when her nerves really get to her. Maybe seeing herself in 2nd or 3rd at Nats will do her some good =)

I don't even think 2nd will do the trick. She'll have to be down there enough- 3rd or 4th place...so that she thinks she has NO chance of winning and therefore has NOTHING to lose by going all out for it...I mean, Sarah was in 4th at the olympics...had she been 1st or 2nd or 3rd I don't think we would have seen the FS that we did from her. She didn't think she had a chance to win so she just went for it...

euterpe · Dec 30, 2004

Irina also fell victim to tight, tense conservative skating in the SLC FS. She had been skating "Tosca" with animated characterization (at times a bit over the top) in colorful costumes, and then at the Olympics, she came out in a black dress and skated so slowly and deliberately that it was hard to grasp that this was Irina! The stumble on the 3F was very noticeable because there was so little speed going into it. She didn't pick up any speed until the end of the program, but by then the damage was done and gold was lost.

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 30, 2004

euterpe said:
Irina also fell victim to tight, tense conservative skating in the SLC FS. She had been skating "Tosca" with animated characterization (at times a bit over the top) in colorful costumes, and then at the Olympics, she came out in a black dress and skated so slowly and deliberately that it was hard to grasp that this was Irina! The stumble on the 3F was very noticeable because there was so little speed going into it. She didn't pick up any speed until the end of the program, but by then the damage was done and gold was lost.

I see Irina's speed as variable. She does so many elements that there is little time for her to skate and to get speed for the jumps she must do crossovers. However, for certain jumps she will do a bit of transitions into the jumps. Imo, she concentrates too much on her technique so as not to fall. I think that was one of her problems in SLC. And that music just emphasized her overly careful approach to her jumps. In some of the recent GPs, you will see her kick up that free foot when landing a jump. It sometimes reaches an unintended arabesque. That happened in SLC and caused her to lose the gold. The GP Final this year was not as good as her debut in COC. Jmo. She's vulnerable but I think the home town will bring her through.

Joe

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 30, 2004

Oh I am a case! I thought this was about Irina and I was giving my 2 cents. It's about Sasha. My two cents about Sasha is that she rushes too much. Once she calms down she is fabulous.

Joe

SkateFan4Life · Dec 31, 2004

euterpe said:
Sarah Hughes saw the top of a podium just twice: Skate Canada 2001 and SLC 2002. In both cases, the two top skaters, Kwan and Slutskaya, had to make mistakes to put her there.

One of the problems with Sarah's skating was that she pretty much skated inside herself, very controlled, very inward. SLC was the only time I ever saw her let herself go and just all-out skate, and that was because after finishing 4th in the SP, she didn't think she could win. Sarah always said she didn't go to a competition to finish second, that she came to win, and maybe that was what kept her inside her shell and made her skate conservatively. So she wound up for the most part finishing 2nd or 3rd.

I see the same pattern with Sasha at a major competition: too tight, too controlled, too emotionless, too TENSE. And it does her in every time.

Good points. However, Sarah Hughes did NOT make a habit of falling two or more times in her long programs. Generally, she skated clean programs. When she did make mistakes, she did not let those mistakes ruin the rest of the program - she got up and continued to skate well for the rest of the program.
Sasha Cohen, on the other hand, comes unraveled when she falls. One fall generates another fall and yet another mistake. She hasn't learned to shake off the mistake and get on with the program. IMHO, of course.

Fossi · Dec 31, 2004

Red Dog said:
I think this is the case as well...but I think it'll take more than her skating clean to win titles now. She'll have to find that extra edge (whether it's a fire, an extra jump, whatever) IMO.

P.S. Also...am I not the only one who thought her 2004 worlds sp was not all that? It was simply one of those "great!" performances, rather than a "WOW" performance...IMO.

Hello Red Dog! :biggrin:

I think Sasha's SP from 2004 was good for her. I think it may have lost the "WOW" factor because she used the same SP the season before and was so routine. It took her that long to get it right, but when she did it was great! :agree:

Peggy · Dec 31, 2004

ceg15 said:
I really think Sasha has the whole package/all the goods especially her determination, spins, field movements. Her jumps are most of the time strong. As said, she just simply nees to bring it to the ice when she needs it. John Nicks might bring back or bring that specail "fire" too.QUOTE]

ceg15,
This is exactly the way I feel. She is stunning and I hope she skates her best at Nations and worlds. If she does, I don't think anyone can beat her.
Peggy

kyla2 · Dec 31, 2004

I don't agree with the idea that if Sasha skates a clean 7 triple program she doesn't necessarily win. I would bet the bank she does-if she pulls it off. She has a lovely program and the artistry to back it up. Michelle would have to do something extra, like a triple-triple combination and even then I'm not sure it would be enough. The exceptional quality of Sasha's spins, spirals and laybacks are enough to offset a triple-triple. I am a Michelle Kwan fan first and foremost, but Sasha's ability has to be acknowledged. Yes, it remains to be seen if she can ever do a clean 7 triple program, but that could happen sooner than some people think.

Fossi · Jan 1, 2005

kyla2 said:
I . Yes, it remains to be seen if she can ever do a clean 7 triple program, but that could happen sooner than some people think.

Sooner than some think? :laugh:

Sasha has been on the senior level since '00. She has YET to land a 7 triple performance in a major competition.

Did she ever land 7 triples as a junior?

gezando · Jan 1, 2005

Fossi said:
Sooner than some think? Sasha has been on the senior level since '00. She has YET to land a 7 triple performance in a major competition.

Did she ever land 7 triples as a junior?

She landed 7 triples at world QR 2003, and lost.

kyla2 · Jan 1, 2005

I will state once again that I am a Michelle Kwan fan first and foremost, just to set the stage here for my comments. It seems to me that some people are awfully dismissive of Sasha Cohen, which is really too bad since she has had a major impact on the sport in her own way. I challenge some of you to stand up on the ice and even try to do what she does, day to day, in her practices, never mind in competition. A little appreciation for what she does do, and very well I might add, wouldn't be inapporpriate. Jenny Kirk and Angela Nikodinov are very nice skaters but they have had problems with consistency to say the least. So have many of the skaters this year, including our current World Champion. I don't see anyone criticizing them left and right.

mzheng · Jan 1, 2005

kyla2 said:
A little appreciation for what she does do, and very well I might add, wouldn't be inapporpriate. Jenny Kirk and Angela Nikodinov are very nice skaters but they have had problems with consistency to say the least. So have many of the skaters this year, including our current World Champion. I don't see anyone criticizing them left and right.

Yes. All of them have been worked hard, Sasha, Kirk, Angela and WC Arakawa. But none of them get media hype (at least NA media) as Sasha. That's only natural for ppl disscuss Sasha more than Kirk, Angela and/or Arakawa, when she has yet reach the top of podium at Nationals and/or Worlds. She was the one I thought would reach that top in no time when I first time saw her at National TV. But realistically speeking she's achieved so much already, if you compare her with Kirk and Angela.

gezando · Jan 1, 2005

kyla2 said:
It seems to me that some people are awfully dismissive of Sasha Cohen,

It is taking down expectations and take pressure off Cohen. Many people who said she won't win nationals or worlds are her fans,

which is really too bad since she has had a major impact on the sport in her own way.

I think she is capable of delivering winning programs. But major impact? I don't even see a minor impact.

I challenge some of you to stand up on the ice and even try to do what she does, day to day, in her practices, never mind in competition.

I challenge her to do what e.g. Bronxgirl does everyday i.e. fighting nosocomial infections. I don't see the relevence here.

Jenny Kirk and Angela Nikodinov are very nice skaters but they have had problems with consistency to say the least. So have many of the skaters this year, including our current World Champion. I don't see anyone criticizing them left and right.

Again please don't confuse the talking down expectations from Cohen fans as criticism. BTW, I am not surprise that the reigning world champ has some difficulties. It is hard to defend a major title, or a minor one. The only time in recent history among the ladies was NK's 00 and 01 worlds. Cohen lost her GPF to Fumie

Fossi · Jan 1, 2005

I think Sasha's most dedicated fans have been talking down their expectations, trying to take a different route than they have taken since '00. Last season some had her crowned the champion after her SP and even changed their signatures to say she was the National Champion. I think they've learned alot from their mistakes and are growing up. I don't think any of her fans seriously think she isn't going to win. They WANT her to win, but they realize all the trash talking in the world won't make Sasha win, only Sasha can do that.
I feel bad for Shizuka for having a struggle this season. I hope she can come back strong for Worlds. A clean program from Shizuka should top a clean program from the others, including Irina.

bronxgirl · Jan 1, 2005

gezando said:
I challenge her to do what e.g. Bronxgirl does everyday i.e. fighting nosocomial infections. I don't see the relevence here.

Thank you! :eek:

That was a very kind and thoughtful statement

What's your vote on Sasha's move?

SkateFan4Life

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euterpe

R.D.

R.D.

GlitterTwist

R.D.

euterpe

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Joesitz (RIP)

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Fossi

Peggy

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Fossi

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kyla2

mzheng

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