What's your vote on Sasha's move?

Nosocomial Infections/Sasha Cohen

As a nurse myself, practicing for 29 years full time, I fail to see what nosocomial infections have to with this discussion-even as a joke. But if you want a serious response- for a start, try washing your hands for 30 seconds, every time, before and after taking care of a patient. We were talking about figure skating I believe.
I think you would understand the relevance of my previous comment if you did try and stand up on the ice and do what Sasha Cohen does in competition and practice.

Sasha's spins, spiral and layback have raised the standard for ALL skaters. Her flexibility has also had an impact i.e. notice all those spiral/Biellmans (sp?) lately? Her balletic quality has everyone trying to figure out how to compete at the artistic level, except for Kwan who has her own special brand of artistry. When Sasha showed up on the scene she blew everyone away and rightly so. She is uniquely gifted. The fact that she hasn't fullfilled her initial promise and media hype doesn't mean that she won't. The sad thing about some of this commentary is that I think some of you hope she doesn't. Even though I am a Michelle Kwan fan, I am a little more generous of spirit, and I want everyone to skate their best.

Well, I am a Sarah fan and I don't see what being a Michelle fan would have to do with this thread Kyla. Sorry, I just don't. I'm glad that you like both skaters and want them both to do well. I'm a huge Sarah fan and am neutral about Sasha vs. Michelle. I can point out the good and bad in both. I just tend to be realistic and not too emotionally involved in either. Now, if Sarah is skating then I think she is the best ever!
I hope for your sake Kyla that Sasha performs as well as you'd like her to. Lots of luck to Sasha at Nationals.

My Point Is....

Fossi, my point is that I do not have any special agenda when I defend Sasha. As a Michelle Kwan fan, I ALWAYS want Michelle to win. But I am also sick of this relentless dumping on Sasha. I don't ever root for Sasha to fail and I value her strong points as a skater. I would like to see Sasha have some success in her career. She deserves it: she works hard. For example, even though I wanted Michelle to win the last OGM in figure skating, I thought Sarah rightly deserved it with her performance, which was the best of her career. In short, I recognize legitimate and fair criticism, but I also recognize relentless carping.

From comments Tarasova and Robin Wagner have made, Sasha isn't that hard a worker, at least, not a consistent hard worker. I think that may be part of her problem.

I know I am tired of hearing that if Sasha skated clean, no one could beat her. Sasha came pretty close to skating clean at 2004 Worlds---for once, no falls, just a wonky landing and a pop. But she was so tense, tight and stone-faced doing "Swan Lake", that had she not made those small mistakes, her flat performance wouldn't have come close to beating Kwan and Arakawa.

Unless all the top skaters make a lot of mistakes, it takes more than a clean performance to win a major event. Arakawa and Kwan both gave bravura performances, and Sasha needed to do the same. However, I cannot recall Sasha ever delivering a truly spirited performance at any major event. She always seems so walking-on-eggshells-careful that it kills the performance aspect.

Lipinski beat Kwan at '98 Olympics because Kwan was too conservative and Lipinski knew how to turn on the pizzazz. Hughes beat Slutskaya at the '02 Olympics because the usually bubbly Irina had a slow and cautious skate, and Hughes, thinking she couldn't win, abandoned her usual methodical skating, threw caution to the winds, and skated her heart out.

I don't know if Sasha is capable of letting herself go. But I do think if she stopped focusing on winning and just enjoyed herself out on the ice, it might make all the difference in the world.

It is taking down expectations and take pressure off Cohen. Many people who said she won't win nationals or worlds are her fans,

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And what's wrong with that? Do you always HAVE to think your favorite will win? If someone is a Nikodinov or Corwin fan, should they automatically think they will win nationals?

Maybe it is true that some of her fans are lowering their expectations of her. After all, they were raised most likely on the assumption that she has a lot of talent and therefore should be able to pull it off. Go figure...:sheesh:

kyla2 said:

Fossi, my point is that I do not have any special agenda when I defend Sasha. As a Michelle Kwan fan, I ALWAYS want Michelle to win. But I am also sick of this relentless dumping on Sasha. I don't ever root for Sasha to fail and I value her strong points as a skater. I would like to see Sasha have some success in her career. She deserves it: she works hard. For example, even though I wanted Michelle to win the last OGM in figure skating, I thought Sarah rightly deserved it with her performance, which was the best of her career. In short, I recognize legitimate and fair criticism, but I also recognize relentless carping.

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Kyla, you're new on this board (and WELCOME, by the way!). You can't believe how much Sasha gets dumped on. I don't know why. She's a lovely young lady, my personal favorite (and that of my husband) of the eligible ladies. Everything she does or says is subject for criticism. But I believe that to be true of most people in the limelight, including Michelle.

RealtorGal,

I think Sasha and Michael Weiss get a lot of criticism because they do not live up to the amout of hype given to them. The hype can come from several places like their own PR teams, the tv commentators, the fans, the press, etc. It doesn't seem to matter how successful your career actually is if it doesn't match the hype surrounding it.

Every skater that fails to live up to the hype surrounding them at an event suffers from a lot of unneccesary criticism. The difference is that others have a successful history of living up to the hype backing them up so they do get some benefit of doubt for having an off night.

Tara Lipinski would have been ripped to shreds based on her own PR machine, but that girl delivered.

Red Dog said:

Maybe it is true that some of her fans are lowering their expectations of her. After all, they were raised most likely on the assumption that she has a lot of talent and therefore should be able to pull it off. Go figure...:sheesh:

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nothing wrong with lowering expectations, I am just pointing out some of the prediction of Cohen won't win maybe misunderstood by kyla as dismissing Cohen that is all.

kyla2 said:

As a nurse myself, practicing for 29 years full time, I fail to see what nosocomial infections have to with this discussion-even as a joke.

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I brought up Bronxgirl who is an expert in infectious disease, and noscocomial infx as a parallel of your challenge for non skaters to do what Cohen is doing on the ice. I thought the so call challenge is pointless. If the skatte gods have bless posters here with skating skills they will be skating. If the infx disease gods have blessed Cohen with the disease fighting gift similar to Bronxgirl's then Cohen would be an infx disease MD. So that challenge of yours IMHO is irrelevant

Sasha's spins, spiral and layback have raised the standard for ALL skaters.

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I respectfully disagree, and we have to agree to disagree. Kristi, Angela, Janet Lynn, Peggy even Galindo all have text gook laybacks. Their laybacks are not hyped that is all. I credit Nicole for starting the level elevation on spirals. When it comes to spins, I credit Luh, Biellmann the Swiss skaters for raising the levels. That does not mean Cohen does not have good layback, spins or spiral

Her flexibility has also had an impact i.e. notice all those spiral/Biellmans (sp?) lately?

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Interesting, Cohen does not do Biellmann. I however credit her for the I spin fad. I have seen novice skaters doing the I spins

Her balletic quality has everyone trying to figure out how to compete at the artistic level,

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Sorry, I don't consider her as artistic. But then art is subjective.

When Sasha showed up on the scene she blew everyone away and rightly so.

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Can't agree on this one at all. When she first show up on the scene she got tons of credits from US judges. IMHO Sarah should be placed ahead of Cohen, maybe even Mk in the 2000 nationals. IMHO US judges have consistently under mark Sarah in favor of Cohen. OTOH ISU judges consistently marked Sarah ahead of Cohen, e.g. in COR 00, SA 01. When she first came on the scene. Kirk, and Stellato beat her at junior worlds.

The sad thing about some of this commentary is that I think some of you hope she doesn't. Even though I am a Michelle Kwan fan, I am a little more generous of spirit, and I want everyone to skate their best.

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Oh please do not read minds. I think Cohen is capable of delivering winning programs, she may even win the OGM, but artistic? not even close in my book.Sorry art is not stretch and flexibility. Art the ability to make something your own. Kristi's Bridge Over Trouble Water program is art. Art is putting one's heart and soul and share that with the audience, S&Z's Pas das deux is art, Cohen's programs are packed with technical credits if she skates clean, she can win big. She has the technique.

kyla2 said:

Fossi, my point is that I do not have any special agenda when I defend Sasha. As a Michelle Kwan fan, I ALWAYS want Michelle to win. But I am also sick of this relentless dumping on Sasha. I don't ever root for Sasha to fail and I value her strong points as a skater. I would like to see Sasha have some success in her career. She deserves it: she works hard. For example, even though I wanted Michelle to win the last OGM in figure skating, I thought Sarah rightly deserved it with her performance, which was the best of her career. In short, I recognize legitimate and fair criticism, but I also recognize relentless carping.

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Ok we get your point loud and clear. Granted there has been some relentless criticism towards Sasha BUT I would dare say some of that criticism is valid. I don't know if you've noticed but people who doubt her and have criticized her such as myself have also acknowledged the immense talent that Sasha possesses AND the capability to garner success YET she hasn't thus far. And that's what it boils down to in the end. So I don't get where you're going with all of this. You may perceive the criticism as relentess but if you don't like nor agree with the relentess criticism, then by all means, ignore it if you so wish. And may I point out that just because Sasha works hard does not mean she deserves it. First she has to deliever and without having another skater mess up. Then I'll give her accolades when she deserves it and not when she doesn't.

kyla2 said:

The sad thing about some of this commentary is that I think some of you hope she doesn't. Even though I am a Michelle Kwan fan, I am a little more generous of spirit, and I want everyone to skate their best.

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Adding to what gezando said, please do not judge others or automatically presume you know what they're like just because they criticize Sasha or any other skater for that matter.

More Thoughts......

First, RealtorGal than you for the welcome. I feel so sorry for Sasha and the relentless criticism. I really hope she doesn't surf these sites. It would be very hurtful if she does. I think she is tremendously gifted and the longer I watch her, the more I value what she does. I wish her the best in the future and I sincerely hope she gets a gold at some major competition before long.

Gezando, you and I really don't agree at all. Janet Lynn had a lovely layback but it was not in Sasha's league. Kristi? Come on-we are talking apples and oranges here. You forgot Dorothy Hamill who REALLY did have a lovely layback.

Back to infectious diseases. ANYONE can do infectious disease work. Doing it well is the important thing. (That is no reflection on you Bronx girl, I am sure you do a great job). The point I am making is that Sasha is a brilliant skater and she did indeed up the ante and become the gold standard for many skaters when you talk about spirals, laybacks and spins. The Bielman spiral is a direct result of trying to up the ante to compete with Sasha and Michelle's spirals, which are the best.

Do I really think that some people want Sasha to fail? Yes, sadly I do. For some reason, and I have no idea what that is, some people want her to fail and are supremely happy when she does.

Even if her presentation and artistry aren't your cup of tea, you cannot deny her balletic quality, which is unique to her. No skater in history has come close to having this quality and it is astounding when you consider she is doing this on slippery ice. You describe it only as felxibility. Well, yes, she is flexible, but it is so much more and that's why Dick and Peggy gush and judges reward her for it. It's a gracefulness and attitude that are lovely to watch. Does she lack emotion? Yes, sometimes she does and her performance is flat. But from what I have seen, she has been working on that and her performances have had more emotional content. Will she ever transport the audience the way Michelle does? Probably not. That is Michelle's special gift (along with amazing consistency).

You are a Sarah fan right? Well, Sarah wasn't a perfect skater either and she had her issues, and I bet you wouldn't want to see them interminably listed on thread after thread. It wouldn't be a nice thing to do. I certainly respected her work ethic and her attempts, with some success, to fix those problems. It was enough to win her an OGM.

I am not a fan of coach hopping, particularly when the skater has been successful with the coach they are leaving (Jenny Kirk is an example of that issue). I think this has been Sasha's number one mistake. I think if she had stayed with John Nicks, she might have had more success. But having said that, I am happy she is back with him and I only wish her success.

gezando said:

nothing wrong with lowering expectations, I am just pointing out some of the prediction of Cohen won't win maybe misunderstood by kyla as dismissing Cohen that is all.

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OK, gotcha. Sorry about any confusion.

Red Dog said:

OK, gotcha. Sorry about any confusion.

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I have a quick question to ask you. If Sasha happened to win Nationals over a clean Michelle or Michelle for that matter, do you think that would do wonders for her garnering success? Sure she beat Michelle in cheesefests but I'm also wondering about if she does on Michelle's turf.

Kuchana said:

I have a quick question to ask you. If Sasha happened to win Nationals over a clean Michelle or Michelle for that matter, do you think that would do wonders for her garnering success? Sure she beat Michelle in cheesefests but I'm also wondering about if she does on Michelle's turf.

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I'm going to assume you directed that question at me since you quoted me at the top

Anyway, you bring up an interesting point. I think it would certainly boost her confidence in that she can comfort herself with the reality that she was able to rise up to a difficult challenge. And with greater confidence comes more inspired performances, and less tentative, unsure ones. JMO, of course...

Kyla2 said:

I feel so sorry for Sasha and the relentless criticism. I really hope she doesn't surf these sites. It would be very hurtful if she does.

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Hi, Kyla. When I read mean stuff on discussion boards, I just remember that these posts reveal more about the poster than about the supposed object of the attack. For some reason the anonymity of the Internet seems to give people license to abandon accepted notions of common courtesy.

I think that high profile athletes and entertainers accept such criticism as part of the territory. I’ll bet Sasha laughs all the way to the bank about the fact that the least little thing she says or does raises a big howl all over the Internet. It’s when they start ignoring you that you’ve got a problem.

In any case, if Sasha, Michelle, etc., want to have their egos stroked, they can always check out the latest posts on their fan sites. It must be cool to be worshipped and adored by thousands of strangers.

Mathman

Even if her presentation and artistry aren't your cup of tea, you cannot deny her balletic quality, which is unique to her. No skater in history has come close to having this quality and it is astounding when you consider she is doing this on slippery ice. You describe it only as felxibility. Well, yes, she is flexible, but it is so much more and that's why Dick and Peggy gush and judges reward her for it. It's a gracefulness and attitude that are lovely to watch. Does she lack emotion? Yes, sometimes she does and her performance is flat. But from what I have seen, she has been working on that and her performances have had more emotional content. Will she ever transport the audience the way Michelle does? Probably not. That is Michelle's special gift (along with amazing consistency).

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Let me start out by saying I really do admire you for coming clean and stating your opinion no matter what other people might say, even if it's the majority. And welcome to the forum as well

Now, that said, I think what you stated above is simply a matter of opinion. I don't think that most of the people here who criticize her or doubt her (I include myself in this) really have negative intentions. They are just stating their opinions and thoughts, as you state yours above. You think she has that special something (certainly a lot of others do, too) but there ARE those who don't find anything special about her (I have to admit I'm one of those); either that, or they think she's incredibly talented but are tired of all the media hype and "turn negative" on her (because she hasn't met expectations). Once again, I don't think the vast majority here wish ill on Cohen or deliberately try to take her down; they are just pitching in their two cents on how Cohen hasn't lived up to the incredibly hyped potential.

Keep posting It's really cool to read all people's opinions, no matter what they are...

Red Dog said:

I'm going to assume you directed that question at me since you quoted me at the top

Anyway, you bring up an interesting point. I think it would certainly boost her confidence in that she can comfort herself with the reality that she was able to rise up to a difficult challenge. And with greater confidence comes more inspired performances, and less tentative, unsure ones. JMO, of course...

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Sorry yeah I was directing it at you

I was just wondering because after a lot of people took notice when Sasha beat Michelle at the cheesefest and again later after that and I was thinking to myself that probably helped her a little if not any or what do you think? Ok I'm not saying nor implying I don't know what she thinks, etc but I think it'd be only natural if you wound up beating a rival and one that's been at the top for so long. I don't know but did you take any notice of how she progressed after that win? I recall she even mentioned about how it meant more to her because of the fact that she beat Michelle even if it was at a cheesefest so like you, I'm thinking that if the win was at Nationals or even Worlds then that confidence would help her. Although all this talk reminds me of not thinking of it as winning but there's a balance in there somehow right???

Kuchana said:

Sorry yeah I was directing it at you

I was just wondering because after a lot of people took notice when Sasha beat Michelle at the cheesefest and again later after that and I was thinking to myself that probably helped her a little if not any or what do you think? Ok I'm not saying nor implying I don't know what she thinks, etc but I think it'd be only natural if you wound up beating a rival and one that's been at the top for so long. I don't know but did you take any notice of how she progressed after that win? I recall she even mentioned about how it meant more to her because of the fact that she beat Michelle even if it was at a cheesefest so like you, I'm thinking that if the win was at Nationals or even Worlds then that confidence would help her. Although all this talk reminds me of not thinking of it as winning but there's a balance in there somehow right???

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I'm sure that it might have made her feel better, but the bottom line is she wants the BIG titles. What I think the win DID do for her was give her more confidence at the smaller events (even at worlds, I think she did a great job, even though people seem to rag on her for not winning...she DIDN'T FALL for once!). She still wants to win Nats and Worlds badly, and IMO, she'll simply have to deal with the nerves and apprehension until she can win one. But even then, she did put on a good SP at Nats and a good QR and SP at worlds. Now she has to get confidence for the freeskate. I think it will come only if she happens to do badly in the SP and the pressure is taken off of her.

IMO, of course (this should become my new sig )

I do think there is something about getting over the hump and beating your main rival for the first time. For some reason a rising Sarah Hughes often found herself in competition with Maria Butyrskaya for third place, and it seemed like Sarah crossed a big hurdle when she got past Maria and won the world bronze in 2001.

After Sasha beat Michelle in the first cheesefest of the 2003-2004 season, she went on an incredible tear, scoring record performances in three Grand Prix events. Unfortunately disaster struck later in the season, leading to her rift with Tatiana Tarasova.

Even so, Sasha came back to beat Michelle at Worlds. Unfortunately for Sasha, Shizuka beat them both.

So I think Red Dog is right. It did give Sasha a boost to realize that she was capable of matching Michelle. But now she has her sights on winning the major titles.

Mathman