CoP: Why do Level 1 moves?

RealtorGal · Dec 28, 2004

During the GPF, someone commented that Miki Ando's in between moves (spirals, spins, footwork, etc.) were mostly Level 1. I don't understand this. She, her coach and her choreographer know that she will receive minimal points for these types of moves. So why not increase the difficulty? Is it because she is simply incapable of doing more difficult moves, or is it a coaching or choreography problem?

I'm sure that this applies to other top level skaters as well, but this comment really stuck out at me during this competition.

Any thoughts?

BronzeisGolden · Dec 28, 2004

I think it is an interesting question you pose. I'd have to think that the skater does Level 1 because they either can't do the more difficult moves or they can't do them well - thus, by incorporating risky/shaky elements they feel they may tarnish the flow or integrity of the program. I don't really know enough about COP to determine whether or not this is a wise decision. Is the value of a perfectly executed Level 1 spin at all comparable with a poorly executed Level 2 spin?

RealtorGal · Dec 28, 2004

Chengiang Li is another skater who has low level in-betweens. Is he simply incapable of doing more difficult moves, or is it a coaching or choreography error? With the quality of his jumps and the ease with which he knocks off those quads, it seems a real shame for him not to break through to that very top tier.

Ladskater · Dec 28, 2004

RealtorGal said:
Chengiang Li is another skater who has low level in-betweens. Is he simply incapable of doing more difficult moves, or is it a coaching or choreography error? With the quality of his jumps and the ease with which he knocks off those quads, it seems a real shame for him not to break through to that very top tier.

This is the problem that has developed over the years with skaters concentrating so much on their jumps due to the emphasis placed on them in the old 6.0 judging system. Paul Martini, actually made a comment about this very problem. Paul, said "many skaters have worked on the "big tricks", but have neglected to develop the trickier "in between" elements." Now they have to address this area of their skating with the new judging system in place. Judges will notice sloppy footwork and simpler moves. Skaters, like Kurt Browning who have excellent edge control have no problem in this area. I am afraid it is one of the areas that has suffered since the demise of figures. Edge control quality has to be worked on just as much as jumping. Let's hope these skaters get some footwork under their belts!!

Vash01 · Dec 28, 2004

Partly it is because the skaters concentrated on the big jumps because that's what the 6.0 system rewarded. Some skaters- e.g. Miki Ando- are young, and may feel that there will be time to work on artistry later. Some simply don't have the ability to do more difficult in betweens, just like some skaters simply cannot do a triple axel or a quad consistently. In addition, doing the level 3's take a lot of energy, so a skater may have to balance out the jumps and the in betweens so that stamina does not become an issue. Ilia Kulik had that problem with his Romeo & Juliet program in the 1997 season. Doing many difficult in betweens could slow down a skater which could make it more difficult to do a triple or quad jump. Some may feel it is better to do the big jumps and keep level 1 footwork. Others may feel level 3 footwork is better than the unreliable jumps. I think it depends on the strengths and weaknesses of the skaters. It is rare to find a skater that can do it all and have the energy/stamina to do it for 4 or 4.5 minutes.

Vash

ChiSk8Fan · Dec 28, 2004

Level 1 and GOE

Technically speaking, a Level 1 move done extremely well will get a wonderful GOE, adding points. For example, Level 1 footwork done extremely well should get the base value of 2.0 points plus a GOE of +3 or 5.0 points. Level 2 footwork done satisfactorily or no better will get 3.0 points plus a GOE of 0 or 3.0 points.

The point is that Level 1 moves, if done extremely well, can get as many, if not more points, than more difficult moves not done extremely well.

Most skaters will push their comfort level to improve the speed and amplitude of their moves, then add difficulty and get comfortable doing those harder things at top speed, etc. It all takes a lot of time, thought and practice, practice, practice.

It's not about "coaching errors" really, it's about skaters being different and at different levels of development, I think.

euterpe · Dec 28, 2004

When Jeff Buttle performed his FS for the first time at Skate Canada, he had a big problem landing his jumps because of all the intricate connecting moves, so much so that he placed 5th in the FS after winning the SP. The FS was overhauled after that performance and many of the problems disappeared. Buttle then won the gold medal at Cup of China and the silver medal at the GPF with the revised FS.

BronzeisGolden · Dec 28, 2004

Thanks for answering my question, ChiSk8Fan. So, it certainly does seem sensible that a skater that can't properly execute a Level 2/3 element would choose to perform an easier, more reliable one.

Matt · Dec 28, 2004

With all the difficult technical elements that elite skaters are doing nowadays, it seems like sometimes skaters and their coaches have to resort to simpler transitions or spins just so that they can get everything into the programme and done. As euterpe mentioned in the example with Jeff Buttle, Buttle is a fantastic artistic skater capable of very difficult Level 3 footwork, but he simply can't do all of that with all the triples and quads he has to put into a LP to stay competitive.

IMHO, this is a very worthwhile dilemma that CoP has brought to light. I, personally would prefer a much more balanced programme from a skater; one that may not be as technically difficult as humanly possible, but has a satisfactory mix of difficult jumps, spins, and footwork along with relevant well-interpreted choreography. The question is: is it possible to have programmes like the above-mentioned in figure skating and still satisfy all the critics who say that figure skating "isn't furthering itself as a sport"? I would like to believe it can, and I think that having something like CoP in place is a way for the sport to begin to do such.

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 28, 2004

This is another of those BRANDINGS.

Trust me, you will see countless posts mentioning Miki with "she has no transitions.

Sarah has underrotated jumps.

Michelle can't do 3x3s

Sasha falls all the time.

It's like no one can improve. duh!

Joe

Ptichka · Dec 28, 2004

Joesitz said:
This is another of those BRANDINGS.

Actually, I belive RealtorGal was quoting the ESPN commentator.

dr.frog · Dec 28, 2004

A number of skaters/coaches/choreographers seem to be having problems figuring out what the rules are for higher-level spins and step sequences, and are putting things in that increase difficulty without getting any credit for it. (This was particularly true early in the season because the ISU changed the criteria since last year.) It is also the case that callers are not consistently identifying higher-level spins and step sequences. E.g. Ryan Jahnke had some elements that were called as level 2 at both Skate America and Skate Canada, but the caller at the GPF gave them only level 1. There seems to be no way for skaters to protest that their elements were called incorrectly, as there is in gymnastics, for instance.

mpal2 · Dec 28, 2004

I would hope that skaters not being able to protest the level given is something that changes in the near future. Although I don't realistically expect it to change soon enough.

Somehow, I envision another scandel before something is done about it. After all, we can't use anything like preventative measures or common sense can we? :sheesh:

ChiSk8Fan · Dec 28, 2004

BronzeisGolden said:
Thanks for answering my question, ChiSk8Fan. So, it certainly does seem sensible that a skater that can't properly execute a Level 2/3 element would choose to perform an easier, more reliable one.

You're welcome, Bronze, and nice to meet you

I think it is and can be a matter of quality as well as difficulty in terms of awarding points for execution, and the component scores as well.

I am very interested in seeing how the CoP is used and interpreted across all levels of figure skating if it is universally accepted and used. At the lower levels of double jumps and lower, the base values are miniscule, and it seems to all come down to GOE, spins and footwork to score points.

When we apply the standard of these elite level top skaters across all of skating and how it is judged and developed as a sport and program to develop athletes in the future, we can see the direction the sport will take at the Olympic eligible level. Quality and GOE will dominate at these lower levels, as all the skaters essentially do the same jumps. Spins and choreography and steps will dominate and in between connecting steps, which gather big points at the lower levels, will be emphasized.

But this is a topic for another time, I guess, entitled....

"How will Level 1 competitions be judged?"

RealtorGal · Dec 28, 2004

Ptichka said:
Actually, I belive RealtorGal was quoting the ESPN commentator.

Yes, thanks, I was quoting the ESPN commentator, who is the person who labeled Ando's and Li's in-betweens as mainly level 1.

I was reading the interview with Johnny Weir and he pretty much said the same thing as several of you mentioned on this thread. He said that quads are very hard and should receive additional points. However, he, on the other hand, may be able to do spins with 10 changes of positions and edges, so he should be rewarded for that. He also said more or less that skaters skate to their strengths. Makes sense to me.

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 28, 2004

RealtorGal said:
Yes, thanks, I was quoting the ESPN commentator, who is the person who labeled Ando's and Li's in-betweens as mainly level 1.

I didn't think you labled Ando, and it was correct for you to bring up the subject of levels. Susie Wynn rants on and on about level this and level that. Ando did a better than average spiral and changed edge. Susie said it was nice but only a level 1. And she comments on Li who did some nice transitions and footwork as mainly level 1.

I can't believe most judges know the differences in levels for each element, and it's not humanly possible for them to judge all of this in the short period of time that the skater is doing trick after trick after trick. I'm thinking with the best known skaters, judges know before hand from previous tapes just what those skaters can do. But do the judges allow for improvements or are they branded level 1 for life?

If Ando's change edge spiral was level 1 and Irina's two hand hold spiral is level 3, what on earth is a level 2? Is there a criteria or is it just another subjective decision which will be judged differently by different judges?

Joe

Vash01 · Dec 29, 2004

Joesitz said:
I didn't think you labled Ando, and it was correct for you to bring up the subject of levels. Susie Wynn rants on and on about level this and level that. Ando did a better than average spiral and changed edge. Susie said it was nice but only a level 1. And she comments on Li who did some nice transitions and footwork as mainly level 1.

I can't believe most judges know the differences in levels for each element, and it's not humanly possible for them to judge all of this in the short period of time that the skater is doing trick after trick after trick. I'm thinking with the best known skaters, judges know before hand from previous tapes just what those skaters can do. But do the judges allow for improvements or are they branded level 1 for life?

If Ando's change edge spiral was level 1 and Irina's two hand hold spiral is level 3, what on earth is a level 2? Is there a criteria or is it just another subjective decision which will be judged differently by different judges?

Joe

I believe judges watch the practices so they have some idea of what the skater is doing, and there are criteria for levels of spiral (since you used Ando and Sluteskaya as examples). However, I agree that it is possible for a judge to make a mistake between level 1 &2 or between 2 & 3. I doubt there will be a mistake between level 1 & 3.

dr.frog · Dec 29, 2004

It doesn't matter if the judges know the difference between the levels, because assigning levels is the caller's job, not the judges'.

Kuchana · Dec 29, 2004

dr.frog said:
It doesn't matter if the judges know the difference between the levels, because assigning levels is the caller's job, not the judges'.

Ermmm pardon me for asking but is the caller also the technical specialist??

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 29, 2004

dr.frog said:
It doesn't matter if the judges know the difference between the levels, because assigning levels is the caller's job, not the judges'.

I think Technical Specialist is the name in use now. Caller is no longer used.

dr.frog. - As I said the 'caller' or Technical Specialist is indeed a very powerful position in scoring competitions.

Vash - When points are of the utmost importance, the level called by the Tech Asst. can be crucial to the scoring. Think Summer Olys. This random calling will be very subjective especially since level 2 does not seem to be clear.

It may be clear to Susie Wynn what level 1 is and level 3 is although I don't agree with her and I think she should leave that to the Tech Specialist and stop announcing it as gospel for the viewers. She obviously has no idea what level 2 is, and that includes her take on Dance as well.

Joe

CoP: Why do Level 1 moves?

RealtorGal

BronzeisGolden

RealtorGal

Ladskater

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ChiSk8Fan

euterpe

BronzeisGolden

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dr.frog

mpal2

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dr.frog

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