Sasha Cohen's Programs

Re: Lynn1951...just for a laugh

realistic51, :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:

Seriously though, if the judges want too see a more balanced program, then I sure don't understand why TT would have allowed Sasha's program to be designed so frontloaded. OTOH, since Sasha has been getting pretty good marks, there must not be much of a problem in the judges eyes.

Re: Lynn1951...just for a laugh

There isn't any rule against front-loading, but if Sasha, Sarah, and Michelle both did 6 triples with no 3/3 or 3/.5/3, I bet the judges would give the win to the skater who has the more balanced program. Of course these are judges and they do have their favorites.

Re: Sasha Cohen's Programs

I do commend Sasha for trying 2 3/3's, very gutsy. That front-loading still gets to me. Alexei is also a front-loader, but he has so much origionality and spark that I can see past that. There isn't much in Rach for me to fret over. This may be a personal opinion, but Rach seems really stale, especially in comparison to her SP this season. The music is also cut so poorly that it hinders my enjoyment.

Too bad Irina is out of the mix, worlds won't be the same w/o her. So now, i think it's a 2-way battle for the top. It all depends if Sasha skates that clean program. Her program is more difficult than MK's. Also, for whoever asked earlier, MK's spin combo is much easier than Sasha's. Sasha's spin combo is amazing and is very very difficult. That fact that she does it at the end of the program, wow.

TV

Re: Sasha Cohen's Programs

I wonder too why Tarasova would create a front-loaded program for Sasha, since Tarasova has stated that one of her main objectives is for Sasha's programs to get high technical marks from the judges. I wonder if this is a Russian thing? Not for all coaches, but part of some Russian coaches approach. For examples, Russian skaters in general have tended to be weak in endurance due to not doing full runthroughs. Anyway, I wonder if it's some kind of coaching approach.

Definitely planned difficulty and executed difficulty are two different things. For me, it's difficult to compare since some skaters with high difficulty (Shizuka, Sasha, Fumie) have been inconsistent in landing planned 3/3 combos or sequences and other skaters (Michelle, Sarah, Yoshie) haven't competed much either by choice or because of injury. I've only seen Carolina Kostner skate once, so I can't really assess her consistency. As for Sasha's LP, I'd like to see one triple pushed back until right before the final spin combo, but given Sasha's difficulties with consistency, I think it's a wise move on Tarasova's part to put the jumps where they are. A skater landing 6 triples in the first 2:25 of the program is going to get higher technical marks than landing 5 triples and falling on the last one toward the end of the program. But that's a coaching strategy. Also, I wonder too what judges think about the placement of jumps. I'm sure it's different for different judges. Considering all the elements--spins, jumps, moves in the field--the way it has been performed on average this season, I'd give the edge in technical difficulty of the LP to Sasha. But considering the way Michelle performed at Nationals, I'd say that performance of her LP was the most technically difficult well-performed program of the season. As for potential difficulty, I'd give it to Sarah, Yoshie, and Shizuka.

As for the fit of Rach to Sasha, at Trophee Lalique, it seemed to fit her like a glove and that she had pretty much found the key to performing the program. She seems to have lost that in recent performances in trying to focus on landing her jumps, so we'll just have to see what happens.
Rgirl
PS I just looked at the tape of the GPF and timed it. Sasha landed her 3sal/2t combo at about the 3:00 minute mark. She lands her 2Axel, which had been her last jump previously, at about 2:38. Also, after the Ina Bauer, Cohen doesn't do any stroking before the 2Axel. She simply does a half turn with kind of a half stroke and then another half turn, no stroke, to position herself for the forward edge take-off of the Axel. Although it would be amazing if Sasha could do the 2Axel right out of the forward edge of the left foot of the Ina Bauer. What program does Michelle do that in?

Rach

As I've said before, I think Sasha's technical program is wonderful. Its suits her style perfectly, most notably the vivacious pep and attitude she can muster. This same tactic doesn't work nearly as well for music like "Rach". To me, that music is soft and elegant, more in the style of Chen Lu. Sasha is elegant, but she's not really a soft skater. She's an exceptional talent and could be the next American skating princess, but all of that is still a COULD for me. When she conveys undeniable, real emotion that I can sense and feel, when I am watching a long program of hers and it goes by in a flash, then I'll know she has arrived.

Sasha's programs

Count me in with those who say Sasha's short is much stronger than her long. Malaguena suits her to a "T" and I would argue it is the finest competitive program she has ever had. The dramatic crescendoes in the music beautifully highlight her spiral, Charlotte stop, Sasha Curl and "Beaver Cleaver?" at the end. Great footwork section too.

Her LP has interesting choreography which she performs well, but I didn't get too excited watching it. Some of her show-stopping moves seem "forced" instead of seeming to fit naturally into the program. The footwork section in the long also feels "forced" and IMO doesn't flow naturally to the music. I agree with those who weren't thrilled with the music cuts.

Re: Sasha's programs

Definitely Malaguena. She looks great and with that bravura style she has it works perfectly. The LP is good but it doesn't overwhelm me. Her signature moves are not unexpected so I tend to watch the whole package.

But for the SP, I wonder if she'll win that over MK who has had such a long hold on SP wins? It will be interesting if both skate their best.

Joe

Re: Sasha's programs

Long hold on shorts???????

I seem to recall Sasha winning the short at Nats last year. I can't remember (as I don't have it on tape) but in 2000 didn't she win the short at Nats as well?

Re: Sasha's programs

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I seem to recall Sasha winning the short at Nats last year. [/quote]

Huh?????

Re: Lynn1951...just for a laugh

I think Sasha's program is difficult enough but probably not the most difficult - I think she and her coach had no choice but to front load her program because otherwise she would be doing mostly doubles or falling in the last minute - better 5 triples in the first 2 minutes than only landing 3 triples and 4 doubles overall. I know MK, Tara and Kristi always put a difficult jump or jumping pass at the end to impress the judges with their stamina, but who knows if they even take notice of that - as long as they're not huffing and puffing at the end and looking upbeat, that's enough for me to see they still have stamina.

Plus, I think difficulty is relative - the Lutz is supposedly the hardest after the Axel but for some skaters it is their favorite, easiest jump, and then for some the Loop is the biggest problem. I think the most technically difficult routines (as far as jumping is concerned) I've seen lately are Sarah Hughes Olympic LP and Tara Lipinski's Olympic LP. They combined difficult combinations, clean landings and their programs were complete - not just Zayak-style jumping bean programs which is what Yoshie is still doing to some extent.

What Sasha lacks in stamina and speed, she makes up for in carriage, posture and form IMO, the attention to details - this adds to the difficulty factor when I consider the hours of time spent attaining that perfect form - it certainly isn't natural.

I remember a gymnastic announcer in 1992 who was outraged that Tatiana Lyssenko's vault was worth the same as other's when she threw in an extra twist that took about an extra year to learn -- she didn't have to do it, but she did and was not rewarded for it. Perhaps in the future skating will list all possible jump combinations - give them a base score of how difficult they seem to be and then score them on how well they were executed. They could also give base scores for ina bauers, laybacks etc -- and then mark them according to how well they were performed - for instance, the classic layback - Nikodinov would likely get a 9 or 10 out of 10, while Yoshie would get about a 3.

Each move in gymnastics has a rating of difficulty, the same might be helpful for skating -- to not only count jumps but other elements - spins would have more meaning, as would the 'moves in the field'.

The most difficult program

Michelle won the short at this years and last year's nationals. Sasha won it in 2000. I think Irina has the most difficult program with a 3/3/2 and the most difficult spin combination and the three turns into a 3loop.

Re: The most difficult program

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But for the SP, I wonder if she'll win that over MK who has had such a long hold on SP wins? It will be interesting if both skate their best.[/quote]

Michelle also has a great SP this year to "The Feeling Begins," which finds her pushing herself artistically and teems with an energy I haven't seen since Romanza in 1996. As with Sasha, the program plays to Michelle's strengths, highlighting what makes her special: deep, beautiful edges, good footwork, nary a hand or body movement out of place and superior basic skating technique. I think the programs are in a dead heat in terms of quality and if both ladies skate their best, the short programs in D.C. will be very, very exciting.

Re: The most difficult program

ciao, Everyone has been saying the 3 turns into a triple loop are easier than footwork into a triple flip and that's why YeBin did not finish higher in the Nats short. If it's true for YeBin, its true for Irina. (again, talking about difficulty, not Irina's loop vs. YeBin's loop where Irina's is better. However, YeBin's lutz is better than Irina's. IMO.

dpp

Re: The most difficult program

One good thing about a front loaded program is that the audience, after biting their nails in anguish for two minutes, can then sit back and enjoy the rest of the program.

MM

Re: Difficulty is More than Jumps

Excellent points, Jules. Several people have said that difficulty is not just about jumps, but you went into specifics.

My only disagreement is on Cohen's speed. When I've seen her live, with COI and at Starts, Stripes, and Skates where she did a short version of Rach, I found her speed to be exceptional. Granted, one or two of her performances of Rach this season have looked on the slow side, but in general I've seen her speed equal to or better than Michelle and Sarah's. But the real speed queen is Irina. None of the US ladies come close, IMO. (Yes, I know she won't be at Worlds )

Anyway, great post and great example with the gymnast.
Rgirl

Re: Difficulty is More than Jumps

Why does Sasha's speed keep causing such disagreements among the fans? I wish I had seen her live so I could give my 2 cents. Can someone finally give us a definite answer to Sasha's speed issue?

Re: Difficulty is More than Jumps

I too have seen Cohen life, and her speed an dedges are OK for a senior level skater nothing to write home about, not as good as Kwan and Hughes. Her stroking efficiency is not as good as Kwan or Hughes either.

Re: Sasha's programs

I think Sasha only won the 2000 SP in Cleveland. Personally, I think Sasha should have won the whole competition, but she didn't. But that's one out of 8 for Michelle.

Joe

Re: Sasha's programs

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think Sasha only won the 2000 SP in Cleveland[/quote]

Interesting choice of words Joe, I think Sasha used the same word, " I won nationals 2000 sp". Usually people just say they place first in the sp, if they place first in the sp, but fail to place well enough in the free skate to win.

In nats 2000 Sasha landed one less triple jump than MK in her free skate, too bad she fell on the triple toe, and 2 foot the triple flip. Sasha almost lost her edge in her camel spin, and one of her spin travelled all the way from Manhattan to the NJ turnpike.

I would have place Cohen behind Sarah and MK overall in nationals 2000.

Re: Sasha's programs

<em>Note: I've edited several of my posts in this thread to try to remove the unacceptably high "jerk" content in what I said. The originals have been downloaded and sent to one of the moderators, which will make sure they are available to anyone who wants evidence of their jerkness and hopefully will remind me to avoid similar jerk attacks in the future.</em>

Shine,
I hear ya re the raging disagreements about Sasha's speed. I think the only way it could ever be settled is to test various skaters' speed over several competitions with a radar gun.

Unfortunately some people keep finding fault with the most insignificant things about Sasha, things that have nothing to do with skating, such as Sasha saying "I won nationals 2000 sp" instead of "I placed first in the 2000 nationals sp." It's one thing to joke about a skater's foibles in good fun. It's another, IMO, to try to present something as if it is significant.
Rgirl