Artistry Vs. the Quad

When Kurt Browning landed the first quad in competition it was an exciting moment because we knew the quad was coming and it would not be long before someone achieved it. Who knew one of the most artistic skaters on the planet would be the first to land the quad? Then Elvis came along and raised the bar by making the quad a standard jump. Now we see skaters like Plushenko and Goebel landing Quads every time they step on the ice. In fact, I have seen so many quads now it has almost lost its original excitement.

While watching Jeff Buttle skate in the Grand Prix final, I was thinking, this guy is so talented - if he never added the quad to his repretoire I would not miss it. I could watch Jeff skate for hours. His musical expression is so refreshing to watch. He sort of reminds me of Kurt at times the way he moves and just progresses smoothly from one element to the next never telegraphing the next move.

I suppose, my point here is I would rather watch artistic skaters do what they do best and forget about the quad. Shawn Sawyer and Johnny Weir fall into this category as well.

It's so great to see artistry being more emphasised and rewarded with the COP judging system. I think skaters have more scope now than before.

It's great!!!!

Ladskater said:

I suppose, my point here is I would rather watch artistic skaters do what they do best and forget about the quad.

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Give me artistry & balanced skating any day over the quad! It's just one element - to me there is so much more to skating than that. I guess that's why I'm such a big fan of Todd, Paul, Brian Orser, Jeff Buttle ....to name a few :agree:

I think they will modify the CoP before the Olympics to give more credit for a quad. I hate to sound sexist, but if you want pretty, that's why we have the ladies' discipline. Men need to be encouraged to show their stuff, and may the best athlete win.

JMO.

Mathman

Mathman said:

I hate to sound sexist, but if you want pretty, that's why we have the ladies' discipline. Men need to be encouraged to show their stuff, and may the best athlete win.

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You don't just SOUND sexist, your ARE sexist. Get your head out of the sand and notice that female skaters are athletes too.

Definately put me on the list that prefers artistry, edges, musicality and personality in skating over the quad jumps.
I agree, the number of quads seen these days has taken the excitement out of them.
I don't mind seeing the well-done quad done in a program that also has the artistry, etc. Attempting quads and failing takes a lot away from an otherwise good program, IMO.
I'm not saying men shouldn't do a quad if they can...but on the other hand, if you want to see men doing (or if a man wants to do) "manly" stuff, participate in/watch football or wrestling. There is too much more to skating than big jumps.

quads rule!

I don't want quads to disappear. Because skating needs excitement and adrenaline rushes and, most of all, unpredictability. People seem to be yearning after ice dance categories... men solo, women solo, and couples... no more jumps, only loads of intricate footwork, fiddly spins and predictable performances. No more adrenaline rushes, risk taking (falling out of a step sequence is less frequent/ dangerous than with jumps,therfore less risky) less athelticism. Sounds like a show to me, not a competition...
If all start having intricate choreo and stop attempting big jumps, the results will be the result of lobbying, reputation, and "whose turn it is". The sport will be reserved to an elite of viewers/fans, because no-one will be able to understand the results.
Moreover, art was never intended to be judged and classified. Sport was. When some rave about a certain skater's posture and "extension" , i see someone with artificial movements, looking uncomfortable with his body. Some believe ballet should be the reference, but it's highly debatable as wether it translates well onto ice at all. Plus, it's an exclusively western cultural reference. What about a skater influenced by african dance and acrobatics! sounds great to me, but some would whine "he has no lines..."
Some skating fans cry at the vieaw of what they consider to be a work of art, others just see a series of clichés moves to cheesy music.
And, without pointing at anyone (i'm not judging the motivations of any posters), i'm getting increasingly frustrated with a phenomenon of intellectual snobbery: it's sounds so much cooler and knowledgeable to say that one likes the artistry above jumps...
a)art was never meant to be judged/classified

b)Art is IMO as rare an occurrence on ice as it is on "pop idol".

c)if the athletic dimension is undermined, skating will disappear from the olys,and rightly so.

So, let's stick to sport. If you need an artistic fix, why not read/go to a concert/a museum?

ps:I'm aware that this post is one-dimensionned. That quads and no choreo would be no better than the opposite. Just trying to debate with the thread starter.

NJSk8Fan said:

I'm not saying men shouldn't do a quad if they can...but on the other hand, if you want to see men doing (or if a man wants to do) "manly" stuff, participate in/watch football or wrestling. There is too much more to skating than big jumps.

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me:
So, let's stick to sport. If you need an artistic fix, why not read/go to a concert/a museum?

LOL we posted at the same time and have opposite conclusions

Artistry is ballied around this forum as if every skater has artistry. What a skater has, imo, is style or a wannabee style and presentation (good, mediocre or poor).

I'm also very much with millyskate on quads, because when we are watching competitions that are being judged (wisely or not) we are watching a sport and quads are elements in that Sport. They are not going away, and they should be judged with the high GOE.

In the realm of figure skating which is not high on the general public's list of artistic events as theatre, museums, concerts, opera, are, it is not easy to discuss 'artistry' with the aforementioned forms of art. The instrument used in figure skating is, of course, the skates - a long steel blade attached to a boot which limits the wearer from natural mobility. Not the most impressive instrument when I think of the many musical instruments I see in an orchestra, and certainly not the body line that simple slippers or shoes I see in dance forms.

The performers on ice (we are not speaking of athletes) generally use 'art' forms borrowed from other genuine art forms. There is little in figure skating that only figure skating can credit itself for. Even the spread eagle is just a second position in ballet. However, there have been attempts to raise the level of artistry in figure skating, imo. Certainly, there was John Curry, and then Kurt Browning. Torvahl and Dean brought Ice Dancing to an artistic level that could be compared with the great ballroom dancers of the century. Tenley Allbright, brought a sense of line to figure skating. I'm really having difficulty trying to think of other skaters that are truly performing artists in the sense of Gigli, Callas, Jean Moreau, Lawence Olivier, Pablo Cassals, Wanda Lewandowski. Those samplings of names are just a few in other artistic mediums. Hard, for me, to think in terms that figure skating would be equal.

Sport however, is another matter, I would rank Kwan with Cris Evert, Elvis Stoyko with John MacEnroe. and we can go on ranking figure skaters in the same vane as other sportspeople.

I prefer to use the term presentation over artistry. I really don't believe because one skater can stick her leg up in the air higher than anyone else has artistry. That to me, is just another factor in competition.

Joe

I'm sort of on both sides of this. I think that artistry is definitely very, very important in a program which Jeff has alot of and that's why him and some others like Weir are such beautiful skaters. They really interpret the music and have lots of expression.

But, I think the quad is also very important.

I don't want quads to disappear. Because skating needs excitement and adrenaline rushes and, most of all, unpredictability

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-Originally posted by millyskate.

Exactly, the quad is and exciting element that you basically need to be in the top but Jeff Buttle is an exception obviously.

dr.frog said:

You don't just SOUND sexist, your ARE sexist. Get your head out of the sand and notice that female skaters are athletes too.

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Well, to you, Dr. F.

To me, there are lots of sports, but it's that second mark that sets figure skating above the others. :yes:

MM

I watched, one time, Brian Boitano do a program with absolutely no jumps other than his huge death drop. There was quite a bit of excitement in the manner in which he presented that program than if I had sat and watched Plushy do a program filled with jumps. And I'm with Joesitz (who will probably faint because I agreed). I prefer the term "presentation" because that's just exactly what it is. It is a sport that is "presented" to music. I've always thought that if people want constant excitement they should have "figure jumpskating".

I don't like the quads at all. But I do love a huge 3A and 2/3s and 3/2/2s. The latter, 3/2/2s, I like only when they don't seem to interrupt the flow of the program. Yes, jumps make figure skating exciting. However so does edging, spirals, and headless spins. Since I can't do any of those things, it is exciting to me to watch someone who can.

Okay, I probably should have used the word "presentation" rather than artistry.
And I agree, there should be jumps, even quads....it just doesn't make an over-all good impression to see someone trying for a quad and falling or having sloppy landings. I'd rather see a perfect or near perfect triple than a fall on a quad or even just a sloppy landing on a quad.(that goes for any jump, really...but since the quad is the hardest of the jumps, I think it's in the best interest for a skater to leave it in training until they have it pretty well mastered.....i.e., Plushy nails it nearly every time and with decent to near excellent landings; Weiss seems to constantly double-foot it, fall, have a bad run-out on the landing)
Of course, the skaters DO have to keep trying for it to see if they'll ever get....

I like a strong technical skater; the problem in recent years has been that working on quad took away from other elements. I want to see a skater have good spins, nice deep edges, fun footwork etc. When I see a jump, I don't want it to be underrotated, two-footed, etc. If they can do all that, more power to them. However, I am glad to see the skaters who haven't fully masgtered the quad stay away from it in competition.

Quads (or any jumps for that matter!) don't necessarily mean a lack of artistry. The only one who comes to mind who does jumps with no artistry would be Timothy Goebel.

Take this into consideration...

97 Skate Canada, Ilia Kulik's Rhapsody In Blue...

"The costume doesn't quite match the music..."

(3 salchow)

"BUT THAT SURE DID! A beautiful triple Salchow right on the crescendo of the music!"

Ilia didn't need the quad to be artistic, but if it had been a quad salchow instead of a triple would it have been considered less artistic?

I hope I am making sense here. Just because a skater has athleticism does not necessarily mean that they shrink in the artistry department.

Mathman said:

I think they will modify the CoP before the Olympics to give more credit for a quad. I hate to sound sexist, but if you want pretty, that's why we have the ladies' discipline. Men need to be encouraged to show their stuff, and may the best athlete win.

JMO.

Mathman

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I hate to sound "old school figure skating" but, both men and women are taught the finer points of figure skating which include details such as posture, point of toe and arm movements. A skater can jump all over the ice but if he/she leaves out these embelishments to their program then it is pretty lack lustre skating. All they become are jumping machines. Figure skating is about poise, presentation and musicality.

I like a balanced program/performance but I LOVE the quad. FS is a sport. If you discourage skaters from doing more athletic skills and just focus on artistry, the sport will not progress. Only a few skaters are able to do both- Plushenko and Yagudin redefined the balance. It is nice to see skaters with musicality and finesse but that alone does not do it for me. A well executed quad is a rarity and a skater must be rewarded for it. Even a skater like Cheng Jiang Li who thrives on the athletic aspect is beautiful to watch in those moments. It does not mean there is nothing else to skating, but I suspect the move for 'No quad' may be coming from fans of skaters that cannot or have not landed the quad in a competition.

When I watch Johnny Weir, I don't care if he lands a quad or not, but that does not necessarily downgrade Plushenko or Joubert or Goebel (when the latter two skate well) in my mind. There are different forms of art. To me, a triple axel by Midori Ito or a 3-3-2 by Irina is as beautiful as a falling leaf by Michelle or a split jump by Sasha Cohen. If I see Miki Ando land a quad salchow, I am going to be just as excited as seeing a beautiful spin by Johnny Weir or footwork by Buttle.

Vash

Well, I certainly expected a mixed opinion on this topic and got it in spades. Some emphasize the point that without the quad skating would be dull - not so - actually, figure skating used to be about mainly tracing figures. Comared to landing a quad, that would be classified today as pretty mundane. Of course, the quad is here to stay and as a former skater myself know the importance of good jumping and appreciate the great jumpers. I still love to watch Elvis. He is probably one of the best jumpers I have had the privilege to see in person and is thrilling to watch.

My point is - there are some male skaters - like Jeff who don't need the quad to add excitement to their skating. Their every move is thrilling. They are a joy to watch as they weave their spell across the ice. Kurt Browning does not even need to add any jumps to a program to make it interesting. I guess if you have never figure skated you might not understand. Even tracing figures can be fascinating and challenging.

Jumps will always be an important part of skating, but I think it is refreshing that other details such as footwork and spins are gaining equal importance. Devloping good jumping skills are always a skaters goal, but with the emphasis on the quad and the lack of training one gains from tracing figures, some skaters were not paying attention to the finer details of skating.

We will always have the artistic skater and the atheletic skater and there has be an element in skating that is the deciding factor for the judges for the outcome of the competition - it used to be figures - now it is the quad for the men - but, it's great to see skaters rewarded for other elements as well.

I appreciate the excitement of the quad jump. What I don't appreciate is the toll that it takes on the bodies of the skaters that I want to be watching for a longer period of time. I would have loved to see more Yags/Plush showdowns the last two to three years. I know that the injury of Yagudin is something that would have flared up anyway with all the years of jumping. I just think the quads and triple axels have taken their toll on a talented, still young athlete, and that is a shame. I hope that we don't see more careers shortened in the next five to ten years due to the emphasis on the big jumps.....I am glad that CoP rewards other elements. It is similar to the revamping of some gymnastics moves years ago...suddenly, a simple-looking front layout is worth the same amount as a double back flip. (Or something similar....I don't know the actual points of each of those elements, just using it as an example that the more simple things are being rewarded in this manner). Rewarding different elements, things that require different levels of technique, I think is helpful to extend the careers and health of the athletes involved.

Kasey

Even tracing figures can be fascinating and challenging.

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Lad- I don't know about fascinating but challenging for sure!
Skating is a combinaton of sport and artistry. That is what makes it unique. Some skaters are all sport some are all artistry and then some get it right and combine the two. Technical elements of skating are just one aspect of the sport. Jumps,spins,etc done without the music, costumes and choreography are nothing more then tricks on the ice.

Artistry vs Quad. It has to be the combination of both.

IMO, the quad is an important element in mens skating but it does not make or break mens skating.

There are two era in mens skating:

- pre-quad - representing by for example, the Weirs, Buttle, Jhanke

- post-quad - represented by for example, the Joubert, Pluschenko, Li

Even choreography, spins and in-betweens are nicely split between the pre-quad and the post-quad.

Hmmm... :scratch: I wonder what does this say about the current mens skating.