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Thread: Degrading Women's Skating?

  1. #1
    Rinkside
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    Degrading Women's Skating?

    After watching nationals last night, and seeing Kimmie's triple axel, I began to think that these referees (around the world, not just here) and desperate to get women to try harder jumps, so they ratify anything that is landed on one foot.

    ANYONE who watched Kimmie skate could see that her triple axel was VERY cheated. Some people think a skid take off is a cheat, so one could argue that the take off was cheated, but the landing, wow. The jump basically just came around and was nearly a half turn cheated which was very visible in both normal play and slow motion. I saw it and I thought, they can't ratify that! The triple axels Kimmie did that ABC played from the practice and warm up were cheated as well.

    I think it's great that Kimmie is pushing the envelop technically, but cheated jumps should not be ratify under no circumstances and this isn't the first time they've ratified a cheated jump. Think back to Yoshie Onda's triple axel attempts as well as Yukari Nakano's--those were less cheated than Meissner's and people when nuts when those were ratified on various occassions. Even Miki Ando's quad was not totally clean (which I hate to say because I'm a huge fan of Miki and I think it's great that she tries the quad).

    Is the skating community trying to make women do harder jumps by ratify these clean ones? Maybe? I'm not sure, but I think it's degrading. It shows they think women can't pull off the clean jumps so they just want to ratify whatever is landed on a foot, no matter what the cheat. Kimmie's triple axel could have easily been a half turn or even more cheated. That isn't a triple axel. It shouldn't be ratified.

  2. #2
    In my heart, I'm actually Canadian....
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    Actually, from what I understand, the very first triple axel ratified EVER (Vern Taylor in 1978) was also a little sketchy, with the landing being a bit iffy. So, for that matter, was the first quad -- Browning's in 88. (Ironically, Michael Weiss has landed a few quads better than Browning's but THEY were not ratified.). So I don't think this is a sexist thing at all; it's pretty typical because they've done it with the men as well. I think the USFSA was so excited over the first triple axel (flawed or otherwise) in 14 years that they may have jumped the gun a bit -- plus I get the feeling that the USFSA really really REALLY wants to push Meissner as much as possible going into 2010. (I'm not saying Meissner isn't worthy of this push, but let's face it, the USFSA does throw support behind some skaters more than others). And let's remember that Harding's axel in Minneapolis was a little sketchy on the landing, too.

    I feel that the rule of thumb should be, unless the element is executed PERFECTLY, it should not be ratified. We see enough flawed jumps as it is without encouraging this type of thing. After all, you don't get full credit for a flawed triple loop or triple salchow, so why should you for a flawed triple axel?

    That all being said, I give Kimmie a lot of credit for the attempt -- and the one they showed her landing in the warmup was absolutely terrific.

  3. #3
    Arm Chair Skate Fan show 42's Avatar
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    I feel that the rule of thumb should be, unless the element is executed PERFECTLY, it should not be ratified.
    Jonny, I agree. I say good for Kim for landing the jump, but it wasn't pretty and it didn't help the flow of her performance. It stood out like a solo attempt and I couldn't see where it fit in to her choreography.......it stood out. Tonya's axel in 91 was much better, more powerful.........42

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    Quote Originally Posted by d12p
    After watching nationals last night, and seeing Kimmie's triple axel, I began to think that these referees (around the world, not just here) and desperate to get women to try harder jumps, so they ratify anything that is landed on one foot.

    ANYONE who watched Kimmie skate could see that her triple axel was VERY cheated. Some people think a skid take off is a cheat, so one could argue that the take off was cheated, but the landing, wow. The jump basically just came around and was nearly a half turn cheated which was very visible in both normal play and slow motion. I saw it and I thought, they can't ratify that! The triple axels Kimmie did that ABC played from the practice and warm up were cheated as well.

    I think it's great that Kimmie is pushing the envelop technically, but cheated jumps should not be ratify under no circumstances and this isn't the first time they've ratified a cheated jump. Think back to Yoshie Onda's triple axel attempts as well as Yukari Nakano's--those were less cheated than Meissner's and people when nuts when those were ratified on various occassions. Even Miki Ando's quad was not totally clean (which I hate to say because I'm a huge fan of Miki and I think it's great that she tries the quad).

    Is the skating community trying to make women do harder jumps by ratify these clean ones? Maybe? I'm not sure, but I think it's degrading. It shows they think women can't pull off the clean jumps so they just want to ratify whatever is landed on a foot, no matter what the cheat. Kimmie's triple axel could have easily been a half turn or even more cheated. That isn't a triple axel. It shouldn't be ratified.
    Kimmie's 3A last night should not have been ratified as a completed 3 axel. I suspect the US judges are so desperate to see a difficult jump from a US lady that they would ratify anything where the lady does not fall. i doubt that the international community would have ratified Kimmie's 3A. That is not to say she cannot or will not land them in the future. I expect her to land a real 3 axel in the future and at that time she should be given credit. Just attempting a jump is not good enough. However, the US judges may have done it to encourage other US ladies go for it.

    I definitely had the feeling that the USFSA is trying to push Kimmie up, and it is for the 2006 Olympics (not the 2010). Imagine a team made of Michelle, Sasha, Kimmie. If the older ones don't deliver in 2006, the young one will, like Sarah in 2002. Unfortunately that move may backfire by discouraging other young ladies who are also talented. The message might be- start doing a 3axel, or you will not make the Olympic team.

    Vash

  5. #5
    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    I think everyone is looking too far into things

    it's been so stinkin long since one of these things was even attempeted that the judges were just as excited as teh arena


    not only that but there were a lot of hostile people at Nationals this year... judges probably felt threatened (hey you want to go with sexist? I'll go with annoying audience members )

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    Kwan's vodka dealer VIETgrlTerifa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle
    I think everyone is looking too far into things

    it's been so stinkin long since one of these things was even attempeted that the judges were just as excited as teh arena


    not only that but there were a lot of hostile people at Nationals this year... judges probably felt threatened (hey you want to go with sexist? I'll go with annoying audience members )
    Oh yeah, let's blame the audience for everything. Anyway, I agree that the Triple Axel was no where near clean and I hope it isn't ratified. Not only would it be correct to judge it that way, but it will have the skaters better prepared for COP where Meissner's triple axel attempt would have been dinged for being downgraded to a double and deducted for being an over-rotated double.

  7. #7
    Hopeless fan Doggygirl's Avatar
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    More Toni???

    I think I also noticed another post where you mentioned dissapointment with the audience. (LOL, I think I put that pretty "PC" didn't I??)

    I'm interested in hearing more. I think you suggest this relates to Kwaniacs. I am certainly an MK fan along with others, but I'm nobody's "IAC." I'm planning to go to 2006 nats. Assuming MK carries on injury free, etc., that will be her year to potentially BREAK the old record, not just tie it. I'm not crazy about crazy audiences, so I'm interested in more rink side details about what we might be in for.

    DG

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    In these days of instant stop-frame replay, it seems like it would be easy to decide definitively whether the jump was fully rotated or not. The judges might not be able to tell from across the ice in real time.

    I think Vash is right. I think the USFSA wants to build up the next generation of U.S. skaters. Maybe not for the 2006 Olympics necessarily, but so they can at least compete with Mao Asada in juniors right now.

    Mathman

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    Custom Title Jhar55's Avatar
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    So Kimmie's axle wasn't perfect, how many other skaters got credit for cheated jumps this week?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jhar55
    So Kimmie's axle wasn't perfect, how many other skaters got credit for cheated jumps this week?
    IMO it is more a matter of something historical when it comes to the 3A. Skaters sometimes do get credit for imperfect jumps but this one was special. A triple axel had not been landed in 14 years by a US lady. The last one was a real triple axel. It is not fair to compare those two because Kimmie's was off by almost 1/2 rotation.

  11. #11
    Kwan's vodka dealer VIETgrlTerifa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    IMO it is more a matter of something historical when it comes to the 3A. Skaters sometimes do get credit for imperfect jumps but this one was special. A triple axel had not been landed in 14 years by a US lady. The last one was a real triple axel. It is not fair to compare those two because Kimmie's was off by almost 1/2 rotation.
    It's like an insult to Tonya Harding that Meissner's triple axel is considered as clean as her's. But then major props to Meissner for going for it and landing a great one in the warm-up right in front of Kwan.

  12. #12
    SkateFan4Life
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    I think it goes without question that the USFSA wants to see another American woman master the triple axel, if for no other reason to keep up with the Japanese skaters who are also performing that jump in competition.

    In my opinion, Kimmie Meissner's triple axel should be ratified. Yes, of course, she turned around at the landing, but her free leg did not touch the ground. I would, perhaps, take off a bit from the overall mark awarded to that jump, as it wasn't perfectly landed. Yet, it was landed, and it should count.

    Tonya Harding's triple axel at the 1991 Nationals had a less-than-perfect landing, as well, and it was ratified. Midori Ito nearly fell from her triple axel at the 1989 Worlds, but she held on to the landing, and the ISU ratified it as the first triple axel performed by a woman at Worlds.

    Kurt Browning's first-ever quad toe had a landing similar to Meissner's, yet the ISU ratified that as well. Vern Taylor's first-ever triple axel had a rocky landing, but it was ratified by the ISU.

    Please understand that I'm not suggesting that the ISU and/or any of the national skating federations sacrifice quality for the sake of quantity (as in number of rotations). Perfect jumps should always be the goal, and less than perfect jumps should receive some sort of deduction. However, in my opinion at least, if a jump is clearly not cheated, two-footed, etc., that jump should be counted as complete.

    I applaude Kimmie for her wonderful long program. That girl may well be the future of American figure skating, and she well may be a World champion of the future.

  13. #13
    Rinkside
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    In my opinion, Kimmie Meissner's triple axel should be ratified. Yes, of course, she turned around at the landing, but her free leg did not touch the ground. I would, perhaps, take off a bit from the overall mark awarded to that jump, as it wasn't perfectly landed. Yet, it was landed, and it should count.
    Hello? Were you watching? Tonya's triple axel was 100% clean. Midori's triple axel was 100% clean. It doesn't matter if the landing is wild, it just needs to be clean and on one foot. I wouldn't mention Midori or Tonya's triple axel in the same post as Kimmie's! I'm glad she tried it, but there was a MASSIVE cheat. When Mao Asada's video was posted here (I'm not sure if anyone remembers) she did a triple axel at Nationals in Japan (also a 3-3-3 combination). He triple axel had a cheat like Kimmie's, only she didn't hide it as well (her jump had better technique and didn't come around so much which is bad technique, but hides cheats), but had a less wild landing. People were very critical of her, and she was 12! She also had a more difficult program than Kimmie (3z-3r, 3f-3r-3t, 3a, 2a, 3z and 3s) and people were very critical of her. Sure, Kimmie pushed the envelop, but things were so cheated. Even her other triples had cheats on them. They ratified her triple axel, and that was an unforgiveable mistake. The USFSA has no excuse.

  14. #14
    Go NJ Devils
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    This competition was judged under 6.0. Just about anything can be ratified if it's landed on one foot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa
    It's like an insult to Tonya Harding that Meissner's triple axel is considered as clean as her's. But then major props to Meissner for going for it and landing a great one in the warm-up right in front of Kwan.
    What has Kwan got to do with it? Kimmie landed a triple axel in the warmup and that's it.

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