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Thread: COP: Forget difficult 3-3s

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    COP: Forget difficult 3-3s

    Why do I still read about how important it is to have a difficult 3-3 in the LP under the COP? It just doesn't make sense, I think it's totally unwise, as far as strategy is concerned.

    Ok, I finally found out the rationale of equating the the score for a 3-3 to the sum of the respective individual jumps performed separately and why a 0.8 factor is accorded to a 3-3 jump sequence. The people who devise the scores for triples have different perspective of the 3-3s. They see it as a licence to the 7 jumping passes barring the 3A, and nothing more. That clearly signifies that the COP is gravitated more to the in between elements than jumps and it also means the impending demise of jumping beans.

    I don't like that, I feel 3-3s should be awarded. Ok, since that's the way things are, then it's totally unwise to go for the 3lz/3lp or to have 2 3/3s. What for? The risk is not worth it. Why not go for the simplest yet slightly dificult combo like 3t/3lp or 3s/3lp or even 3t/3t, to obtain 7 jumping passes and then include 2 3Lzs and 2 3Fs to maximize the scores for jumps?

    As for Michelle, stick to 3t/3t and she shouldn't go beyond 3t/3lp or 3s/slp. Just get the 7 jumping passes and don't fall. Now how many ladies have been consistently landing 7 3s in the last decade? What makes everyone think under COP, Michelle will lose as far as 3s are concerned? For Michelle, her weaknesses are her spins. This is the area where she can be trounced by many skaters if she doesn't upgrade them.

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    Even the most complex spins don't get nearly as many points as jumps do. What Kwan has to do is land all of her jumps cleanly and technically correctly, and get as much +GOE as she can on them, and do the same on the spins she can do well. She can get good +GOE on her spirals and footwork, too.

    What she should not do is attempt jump combinations that she can't land easily and cleanly, or spins that aren't fast enough.

    Kwan has earned her many medals by performing many elements very well, and this should stand her in good stead under CoP, particularly in the PCS marks.

    She does need to upgrade some of her elements, but I think she is very well aware of this and upgrades are in her game plan.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apache88
    Why do I still read about how important it is to have a difficult 3-3 in the LP under the COP? It just doesn't make sense, I think it's totally unwise, as far as strategy is concerned.

    Ok, I finally found out the rationale of equating the the score for a 3-3 to the sum of the respective individual jumps performed separately and why a 0.8 factor is accorded to a 3-3 jump sequence. The people who devise the scores for triples have different perspective of the 3-3s. They see it as a licence to the 7 jumping passes barring the 3A, and nothing more. That clearly signifies that the COP is gravitated more to the in between elements than jumps and it also means the impending demise of jumping beans.

    I don't like that, I feel 3-3s should be awarded. Ok, since that's the way things are, then it's totally unwise to go for the 3lz/3lp or to have 2 3/3s. What for? The risk is not worth it. Why not go for the simplest yet slightly dificult combo like 3t/3lp or 3s/3lp or even 3t/3t, to obtain 7 jumping passes and then include 2 3Lzs and 2 3Fs to maximize the scores for jumps?

    As for Michelle, stick to 3t/3t and she shouldn't go beyond 3t/3lp or 3s/slp. Just get the 7 jumping passes and don't fall. Now how many ladies have been consistently landing 7 3s in the last decade? What makes everyone think under COP, Michelle will lose as far as 3s are concerned? For Michelle, her weaknesses are her spins. This is the area where she can be trounced by many skaters if she doesn't upgrade them.
    Nice rationale. It may work but if MK were to win (which I doubt, btw) then there will be 26 pages of nitpicking that she only did one 3x3. :sheesh: and didn't deserve to win.

    Irina is the choice of the month right now and if she wins with two more difficult 3x3s there will be only a few nitpickers who will say she underrotated her jumps. :indiff:

    If Sasha completes two programs without falls and wins, she will be nitpicked that her one 3x3 was so shaky with a poor landing her father paid for the win.

    If Shizuka competes two programs with her trio of combos, it will make her fans believe in her again and as long as she doesn't win, she willl not be nitpicked.

    If Rochette skates ideally with her 3x3s to that Bird, she will place 5th with nitpickers demanding a recount.

    The above is not a prediction. It is just random thoughts on the topic of 3x3s. and a reminder that the GoE plays a big role in all this.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    The risk is not worth it. Why not go for the simplest yet slightly dificult combo like 3t/3lp or 3s/3lp or even 3t/3t, to obtain 7 jumping passes and then include 2 3Lzs and 2 3Fs to maximize the scores for jumps?
    This analysis makes sense to me, too, and I think it is a flaw in the CoP. I have the same problem with quads in the men's competition. If you add up the points, it's just not worth the risk, CoP-wise.

    We won't even mention a triple Axel for ladies. If U.S. Nationals had been judged under the new judging system, Kimmie Meissner's triple Axel -- the highlight of the competition -- would have been downgraded to a double, and then hit with a -3 GOE for being over-rotated with a wonky landing.

    I think this needs to be tweaked to give higher value for cutting edge elements and less of a penalty for taking a chance on trying them.

    One thing, though, that might push Michelle and others towards trying, say a triple-Lutz/triple toe or triple flip/triple loop, is this. The judges are still looking for a "well-balanced" program, with cool stuff throughout. They could reward these elements in the program component scores.

    Still, yeah, the way to squeeze extra points out of the CoP is to throw in an extra change of position in your spin or extra footwork going into a jump.

    JMO.

    Mathman

    PS. Joe, I think any of the ladies that you mentioned would be pleased to win the World championship in exchange for being nitpicked on the Internet.
    Last edited by Mathman; 01-24-2005 at 02:20 PM.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    PS. Joe, I think any of the ladies that you mentioned would be pleased to win the World championship in exchange for being nitpicked on the Internet.
    I'm not thinking of the ladies, I'm thinking of us monitoring the remarks which will be well, I won't say it. :sheesh: BTW, I saw Kimmie's landing live and on TV and in slomo. Sometimes it looked less than a 1/4 cheat (ok by the rule) and other times it was perfect. The wonky landing would get a -1, though.

    Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by apache88

    Ok, I finally found out the rationale of equating the the score for a 3-3 to the sum of the respective individual jumps performed separately and why a 0.8 factor is accorded to a 3-3 jump sequence. The people who devise the scores for triples have different perspective of the 3-3s. They see it as a licence to the 7 jumping passes barring the 3A, and nothing more. That clearly signifies that the COP is gravitated more to the in between elements than jumps and it also means the impending demise of jumping beans.
    Good analysis. The only reason to try a 3-3 (in the ladies' comp) is to reach the maximal number of triples, that is 7, as there are 7 jump elements with a compulsory axel. But go for the simplest combo, it will be rewarded the same when you sum up all the points for the different jumps. There is another way though to reach the magic number 7 : a 2A/3T (or 2A/3L) combo and then 6 passes with 1 triple each. That's what Yoshie Onda does this year in her LP.
    Another "unwanted effect" of CoP is that, for ladies skaters having no 3-3s combo, and hence compelled to attempt 6 triples at most, they might as well drop one of the jumps and repeat two of them. That's what MK did at the recent US nationals with her freeskate without the 3 loop. In that case, CoP allows you to throw away your worst jump, and you will not be penalized ! There is no reward for a skater landing all 5 (or 6 with the axel) triple jumps !

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    Quote Originally Posted by apache88
    As for Michelle, stick to 3t/3t and she shouldn't go beyond 3t/3lp or 3s/slp. Just get the 7 jumping passes and don't fall. Now how many ladies have been consistently landing 7 3s in the last decade? What makes everyone think under COP, Michelle will lose as far as 3s are concerned? For Michelle, her weaknesses are her spins. This is the area where she can be trounced by many skaters if she doesn't upgrade them.
    Since her coach said openly to a media that she was practicing 3t/3t, 3t/3l, 3z/3t (although my source told me she was landing 3T/3T, 3F/3T,3Z/3T pretty consistantly in practice as early as Campbells). I would agree with you that the best strategy for MK is going for 3t/3l then repeat 3z with a 3z/2t (which she already dose) and 3f with a 3f/2t (it was said that for most senior ladies tackle another 2t after any triple is not so difficult.

    The problem is the 3t/3t is her most consistant 3/3, she has to balance the consistancy and difficulty (She did minimun to win at national by pulling out the 3t/3t from her LP two weeks before Nationals). Then you have to consider that a 3t/3t will rule out any other possibility of 3/3 with 3t tackle along.

    Yes, in current CoP there is no difference in total jump points gain in doing 3Z/3L and 3T/3L, as long as the other jumps are all the same with only one 3Loop. So theoretically Michelle's 3T/3L will be at the same risk as Ando's 3Z/3L in downgrading to 3/2. But if she is considering to the next season, it may possible that ISU change the protocol again to reward more difficult 3/3 more points.

    Joe, your comments on what will happen if each of them won.
    Last edited by mzheng; 01-24-2005 at 04:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alain707
    Another "unwanted effect" of CoP is that, for ladies skaters having no 3-3s combo, and hence compelled to attempt 6 triples at most, they might as well drop one of the jumps and repeat two of them. That's what MK did at the recent US nationals with her freeskate without the 3 loop. In that case, CoP allows you to throw away your worst jump, and you will not be penalized ! There is no reward for a skater landing all 5 (or 6 with the axel) triple jumps !
    Indeed. It needs to be fixed.

    Joe I also totally agree with you about the difficult 3-3s.
    3Lz/3Lp and 3T SHOULD be rated higher than 3T/3Lp and 3Lz.
    Anyway the system is still very "young". It will be much better within 2 or 3 years. (hopefully by Torino)
    Last edited by Mehdi; 01-24-2005 at 05:58 PM.

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    "
    Another "unwanted effect" of CoP is that, for ladies skaters having no 3-3s combo, and hence compelled to attempt 6 triples at most, they might as well drop one of the jumps and repeat two of them. That's what MK did at the recent US nationals with her freeskate without the 3 loop. In that case, CoP allows you to throw away your worst jump, and you will not be penalized ! There is no reward for a skater landing all 5 (or 6 with the axel) triple jumps !
    "

    But I think the panelty alread implied in Zayak rule and the limitation of jump passes. You through away a 3loop, the most you can do is 6 triples in aprogram you gave away a triple points, which ususally more than enough to decide winner of the placement.

    Overall, the more disscussed, I felt the system actually is well thought of from the beginning.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehdi
    Indeed. It needs to be fixed.

    Joe I also totally agree with you about the difficult 3-3s.
    3Lz/3Lp and 3T SHOULD be rated higher than 3T/3Lp and 3Lz.
    Anyway the system is still very "young". It will be much better within 2 or 3 years. (hopefully by Torino)
    But it's now that the judges will be going for grades and if there are no 3x3s in a routine then they will also ignore the other elements by not giving out plus 3s in the GoE. I am cynical about judges.

    Joe

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    Maybe for once the ISU is looking at injury rates from doing quads (men) and 3/3's (ladies) and realizing that maybe it just isn't worth it at this time.

    Or I may be in a hazy fog right now by believing that someone in the ISU is doing something right and I just need to go to sleep and wake up as my old cynical self in the morning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alain707
    Good analysis. The only reason to try a 3-3 (in the ladies' comp) is to reach the maximal number of triples, that is 7, as there are 7 jump elements with a compulsory axel. But go for the simplest combo, it will be rewarded the same when you sum up all the points for the different jumps. There is another way though to reach the magic number 7 : a 2A/3T (or 2A/3L) combo and then 6 passes with 1 triple each. That's what Yoshie Onda does this year in her LP.
    Another "unwanted effect" of CoP is that, for ladies skaters having no 3-3s combo, and hence compelled to attempt 6 triples at most, they might as well drop one of the jumps and repeat two of them. That's what MK did at the recent US nationals with her freeskate without the 3 loop. In that case, CoP allows you to throw away your worst jump, and you will not be penalized ! There is no reward for a skater landing all 5 (or 6 with the axel) triple jumps !
    I like the COP in general but when it comes to jumps it's just so unacceptable. Imagine 3Z/3L & 3T being scored the same as 3Z & 3T/3L as some poster brought up. Seriously, whoever attempts 3Z/3T or 3Z/3L is just plain stupid, for what, to push the envelope, to show how good a jumper you are and risk not medalling because of the high possibility of falling? The coach ought to be shot for advocating that.

    Yes I forgot about the 2A/3T as one of the criteria to get the 7 jumping passes. I say, for Michelle, go for the difficult INDIVIDUAL jumps you are the most comfortable with to maximize the scores. Dump the 3L, her weakest triple, even she lands it she'll probably get deduction for under-rotation.

    Her jump layout can be:
    2A/3T
    3T
    3F/2T
    3F
    3Z/2T
    3Z
    3S

    7 triples without any 3/3, hah! Imagine other skaters who work so hard, risk injuries and errors by attempting 3Z/3T or 2 3/3s only to find themselves on par with Michelle's 7 3s without any 3/3! I'm excluding GOE here.

    If they decide to amend the COP to award higher scores for 3/3s next year, then that's next year's business. At present, if the COP for jumps is as it is, then accomodate the strategy according to this COP, after all this is what competition is all about. Medalling is important to every skater, I don't believe any skater who claims he/she is not TOTALLY for the medal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Nice rationale. It may work but if MK were to win (which I doubt, btw) then there will be 26 pages of nitpicking that she only did one 3x3. :sheesh: and didn't deserve to win.
    If Michelle attempts 3/3s, falls, and is out of the podium, she'll get equally thrashed by the media and non-fans for being old, washed out, being surpassed by the new generation of skaters. So in the end, it's still better to medal or win the title by not doing any 3/3, and get criticized.The lesser of 2 evils

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