Sasha could have been a 3-time Nats Champion and 3-time World medalist

apache88 · Jan 25, 2005

Think about this. Had Michelle retired after SLC, Sasha could have been a 3-time Nats champion. It just got me thinking if this is the main contributing factor to the animosity of some Sasha fans have towards Michelle. I do strongly feel Sasha is too much of a raw talent not to win a major competition. Unfortunately, she doesn't have yet what it takes to win it. Too bad because this is a sport not beauty contest or talents scouting contest.

Michelle has been lambasted left, right, centre for playing it safe and still winning. Here is the thing, if Michelle had retired after SLC, Sasha could have won 3 Nats with those flawed programs each of which had at least one or 2 falls. Now, would she be lambasted for presenting flawed programs and still winning? I have too much time on my hands. This is just for thoughts.

*Edited to delete one-time world champion. A mistake.

JonnyCoop · Jan 26, 2005

I'm trying to figure out how one would arrive at the conclusion that with Kwan out of the picture, Cohen would have one World title under her belt. She didn't even get on the podium at Worlds until last year, and she was runner-up not to Kwan, but to Arakawa. Even taking Kwan out of the picture at the last 3 Worlds wouldn't put Cohen any higher than 2nd at any of them, unless there is some strange formula I'm just not picking up on...... ????

Excidra2001 · Jan 26, 2005

Jonnycoop,

I agree with you. 3 National titles seem realistic but not the world title.
Apach, here is Sasha's Placements at the last 3 world championships.

QR SP LP FR(Final results)
2002
2 4 4 4
2003
1 3 4 4
2004
1 2 3 2

apache88 · Jan 26, 2005

Jonnycoop & Excidra, oops my bad. Thanks for pointing out my mistake. I was always under this impression that Sasha was a world silver medalist before 2004.

sk8m8 · Jan 26, 2005

...in addition, Sasha was the Bronze medalist in 2003 behind Kwan and Hughes. Who's to say Hughes may have done much better at that worlds if she had carried the national champion title into Worlds Competition that year. Just a though...

VIETgrlTerifa · Jan 26, 2005

Excidra2001 said:
Jonnycoop,

I agree with you. 3 National titles seem realistic but not the world title.
Apach, here is Sasha's Placements at the last 3 world championships.

QR SP LP FR(Final results)
2002
2 4 4 4
2003
1 3 4 4
2004
1 2 3 2

Your 2003 and 2004 Sasha placements are off.

In 2003 she was
QR....SP..LP....FR
3........5......3.......4

2004
QR...SP..LP....FR
1.......1......3......2

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 26, 2005

More than likely Sasha would be a multiple Nats winner if MK was not around after Nagano. But I am also thinking of Sarah who would also be around if she would have gotten Nats gold too? It becomes more when both Sarah and MK are not around.

Sasha has very good days from time to time and when she does she is very very good. She's still a contender in Moscow.

Joe

R.D. · Jan 26, 2005

Shoulda, coulda, woulda...if MK was not present no doubt she would win Nats even with a disaster cause there's no one else that would challenge her. Until Kimmie, that is. Cohen may well find herself in 3rd next year. But I get the feeling that she likes MK there because it would mean even more to win AND beat the best in the process. I personally don't think she's a contender at worlds this year, but that's just what I think.

R.D. · Jan 26, 2005

Think about this. Had Michelle retired after SLC, Sasha could have been a 3-time Nats champion. It just got me thinking if this is the main contributing factor to the animosity of some Sasha fans have towards Michelle. I do strongly feel Sasha is too much of a raw talent not to win a major competition. Unfortunately, she doesn't have yet what it takes to win it. Too bad because this is a sport not beauty contest or talents scouting contest.

Having talent does not translate into capability to win the big ones. This is what I think some fans may not understand...it's toughness, both physically and mentally. Being able to do it in practice and exhibition is one...being able to do it in competition is one thing. And that's why the Big Three (SA, IS, MK) are so far ahead of Cohen. You can have all the talent in the world but if you haven't got the nerves, it's no good.

mzheng · Jan 26, 2005

Aside above said Sasha couldn't be National Champions 3 times, two times may be. She couldn't be world champion last year since Arakawa was the one took the spot.

And who knows what would happen, had Michelle retired after 2002. Sarah may chose stay in. Then there could be rivary between Sarah and Sasha. This is to say had Sarah chosen to stay in, she would get on ice every day trainning, stay in shape stay in competetive. You never know.

BravesSkateFan · Jan 26, 2005

Perhaps she would have, but Michelle didn't retire, and she's still competing and at the top of her sport. Perhaps we should go on and speculate who else would have won such and such if so and so would have retired....It's kind of pointless if you ask me.

sk8m8 · Jan 26, 2005

BravesSkateFan said:
Perhaps she would have, but Michelle didn't retire, and she's still competing and at the top of her sport. Perhaps we should go on and speculate who else would have won such and such if so and so would have retired....It's kind of pointless if you ask me.

Agreeed Braveskatefan, sort of like that other post that's turned into a speculation-fest over johnny's sexual preference :sheesh:

chuckm · Jan 26, 2005

I don't think it's quite that simple.

The presence of Kwan was what drove Sasha. Her goal was always to beat Kwan, and without Kwan in the picture, and a couple of US titles (maybe) under her belt, she might have become complacent, and she might have finished lower at Worlds than she did when competing against Kwan.

Casper · Jan 26, 2005

I suppose we'll never know.

equestrianguy · Jan 26, 2005

Sasha, has what it takes to win the Worlds and Olympics.. IT's just she has never been clean in the LP after acing the SP. If she was to pull both programs together...there is no doubt in my mind that her classical skating would be first. The international judges love Sasha's classic Russian-like skating..

soogar · Jan 26, 2005

Maybe if Sasha had won a National title, then it might have been enough to get the performance monkey off her back and she might have won a world title. I think there is so much pressure on Sasha to skate a PERFECT performance when very few of our previous Olympic champions had skated perfect performances all the time. Kristi always had an error in her free skates when she competed as did Nancy (except for her Olympic LP) yet no one really remembers that about Kristi. MK is the standard for consistency and no other lady champion can live up to that yet Sasha is constantly compared to MK and expected to deliver those goods. Kristi is considered to be a great skater but not even she could consistently deliver the 6 triple performances like MK. Kristi's consistency was earned on the pro level when she was constantly delivering 4 triple performances compared to everyone else's two triple performances.

I also want to add that I think Sasha is taking the right step in her skating. At Nationals, despite her mistakes, it seemed as if she let go of the mistake and went on with her programs. She seemed a bit freer and relaxed instead of tensing up as she normally does.

mzheng · Jan 26, 2005

soogar said:
Kristi always had an error in her free skates when she competed as did Nancy (except for her Olympic LP) yet no one really remembers that about Kristi. MK is the standard for consistency and no other lady champion can live up to that yet Sasha is constantly compared to MK and expected to deliver those goods. Kristi is considered to be a great skater but not even she could consistently deliver the 6 triple performances like MK. Kristi's consistency was earned on the pro level when she was constantly delivering 4 triple performances compared to everyone else's two triple performances.
.

I don't know. But it was said that Kristi was the most consistant on before Michelle. And according to some she had consistant 3/3 to boot.

Sasha lets too much thought going through her even during the skating. Actually she was the one set herself up (may be she was too young then, and was setup delibrately by the media), I remember she talked about she wanted to be the number 1 in the World when she first came out. Then all her uber fans come out all force crowned her with the **greatest skater** of all time. So ppl hold that standard to her, after many year's still haven't seen her at the top of the World podium.

If not for her own talking and setup, IMO, she had the INSTANT successes at the senior National and Worlds scene. How many skaters win silver at first Nationals? How many skater can say they got 4th place at first big international competetion, which was Olympics? And also how many skaters can claim being 4th place at first try on Worlds? Not many that I know of.

Her own, her uber fans and media hype, leads ppl hold different standard to her.

soogar · Jan 26, 2005

mzheng said:
I don't know. But it was said that Kristi was the most consistant on before Michelle. And according to some she had consistant 3/3 to boot.

Sasha lets too much thought going through her even during the skating. IMO.

I have all of Kristi's National, World and Olympic performances on tape and she wasn't clean in any of them. She did hit the triple lutz-triple toe combo consistently. She had lots of trouble with her triple salchow jump so if she didn't fall on the jump she would double it. She had an error when she beat Tonya for Worlds in 1991 but she had fewer glaring errors than Tonya.

mzheng · Jan 26, 2005

soogar said:
I have all of Kristi's National, World and Olympic performances on tape and she wasn't clean in any of them. She did hit the triple lutz-triple toe combo consistently. She had lots of trouble with her triple salchow jump so if she didn't fall on the jump she would double it. She had an error when she beat Tonya for Worlds in 1991 but she had fewer glaring errors than Tonya.

OK, I read in another board. Some ant-Kwan fans when argued Kwan's consistancy always get Kristi out to compare. I watched a lot of Kristi pro numbers not that much of her competetion. I start to watch amerture FS competetion only after Michelle appares at the scene. Before that I was only interested in watching Pro.

Ogre Mage · Jan 26, 2005

Kristi always had an error in her free skates when she competed as did Nancy (except for her Olympic LP) yet no one really remembers that about Kristi. MK is the standard for consistency and no other lady champion can live up to that yet Sasha is constantly compared to MK and expected to deliver those goods. Kristi is considered to be a great skater but not even she could consistently deliver the 6 triple performances like MK.

Only partially correct. I watched Kristi when she was amateur and while she almost always had an error in her LP, she completed 6 triple programs on more than one occasion. She regularly planned 7 triple LPs, including two 3lutzes.

1991 Nationals: 6 triples landed, fall on the 3salchow.
1991 Worlds: 6 triples landed, singled the salchow.
1992 Nationals: 7 triples landed.
1992 Olympics: 5 triples landed, fall on the 3loop, doubled the salchow.
1992 Worlds: 6 triples landed, fall on the 3salchow.

Additionally, Yamaguchi landed a 3flip/hop/3toe sequence at 1991 Worlds and 3lutz/3toe combination at the 1992 Olympics and 1992 Worlds.

Sasha could have been a 3-time Nats Champion and 3-time World medalist

apache88

JonnyCoop

Excidra2001

apache88

sk8m8

VIETgrlTerifa

Joesitz (RIP)

R.D.

R.D.

mzheng

BravesSkateFan

sk8m8

chuckm

Casper

equestrianguy

soogar

mzheng

soogar

mzheng

Ogre Mage

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