Bielman Spins - Clear my head on this!
I've been reading that Irina does a lot of Bielmans in her program. I have seen quite a few during the GPs. Apparently, she gets full base score for each of the Bielmans plus 3 pluses because they are outstanding. I'm not sure if the the judges ever saw other skaters do less than 3 pluses or two pluses or one plus or minus 3, 2, 1. duh?
My questions are: IS THERE A RULE ON THE NUMBER OF BIELMANS A SKATER CAN DO IN ONE PROGRAM? There are 8 edges, I presume a bielman can be done on each edge. It would appear that a skater can rack up a lot of points on that spin on various edges and the success of which is limited to the way a person is built.
IS THERE A STANDARD FOR JUDGING A BIELMAN? Several skaters are built to do Bielmans. Is it pure subjectivity which one is better when comparing two or more? or is there a real standard?
WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BASE SCORE FOR A BIELMAN? (Personally, I do not like the spin but there are many GS members who adore anything that looks like a move that acrobats in cirque du soleil do.)
Last edited by Joesitz; 01-30-2005 at 07:16 PM.
Joe, there are no limits, but I would think she would get dinged in choreography for using the same move over and over. But she doesn't. I do like the Biellman, but not in excess. Also, her COE Biellman spiral wobbles horribly, but she gets +1s on it. Weird. I haven't seen that she's gotten any +3s? Has anybody? But she is getting positive GOEs on her spins, even when they travel. Again, weird.
I don't know the base value of the spin...
Irina has almost NO choreography in her LP at all. I think it's one of the worst ones this season and that she should get penalized for using the same move over and over again. Instead she's being rewarded for her lack of originality and lack of ability to do other moves? GMAB!
~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~
Shawn Sawyers' Bielman spin could top Irina's Bielman anyday. In fact, Shawn does a variation of the spin - his own invention - it's amazing. I don't consider Irina's use of the Bielman spin that outstanding - a little overdone. I also don't find her spirals done in the Bielman position that interesting. She should at least try to do a vareity of positions to keep the choreogrphy interesting. The new rules do give skaters greater freedom to be creative, but they should also go by the rule "less is more."
What would Brian Boitano do?
I was just looking at the scoring details for Europeans. I don't think she's getting +3 for grade of execution, but the Bielmann spins and spirals are getting rated at Level 3- so a higher base score. (At least I think so. I haven't seen Europeans yet, so I can't compare the marks to the program...)
I don't find Irina's Bielmann all that pretty. If you've ever seen Denise Bielmann do it, it looks totally different. I think it's being overrated to get Level 3 scoring.
I couldn't find the protocol sheet now, which I readed earlier. But Irina got all + GOEs for all her LP elements. except the jump she falled on (wich was -3 by the rule, but I doubt it shall be called a double or triple, since if she diddn't fully rotate when she falled down it should be called a double like they called others. but the vidio clip is too small and I can't slowmo them).
Originally Posted by PrincessLeppard
But I do have question about her spins GOE. She got one +2 GOE the others were around 1s.
I watched her LP downloaded from FSU. Her spins travels a lot in at least two of her spin when she hit the Bielman positions, wich subject to -1 or -2 GOEs. According to ISU def:
-1 GOE: - travels slightly
-2 GOE: - travels moderately
Good technique and execution of at least three phases of spin described in the base value
Good or very good techinque and execution of all phases of spin,
may demonstrate one superio phase combined with good and/or very good in other phases
AND executes more than required revolutions.
Superior technique and execution in all phase of spin eg. may demonstrate exceptional positions,
ability to maintain speed or accelerate during spin
AND executes more than required revolutions.
With the above deduction on centering (-1, -2), To get +1 she had to at least meet +2 and +3 before the deduction.
I'm not sure if the spins She did in LP warrantee +2 or +3 where "executes more than requird revolutions" is required. IMO, certainly not, some of her position in combo spin barely hit two revolutions (which is the minimum requirement for a position to be counted).
The intersting here is the definition in +3 "demonstrate exceptional positions". Which leads to double rewarding as I suggested in prev post. The exceptional positions (in this case Bielman position) already counted into her level 2 or level 3 difficult call, then +3 in GOE again?
btw, the phases defined as:
All I'm going to say is Irina might deserve her PCS scores in her own right, but other skaters sure were under marked in their PCS scores. Either she was heldup in PCS or others were held down in PCS.
Besides that Judges seems has the problem to apply the GOE consistantly. As I posted in another thread that Judge might confused with difficulty and quality. Judgers are suppose judge QUALITY only (given GOE). The caller judges DIFFICULTY (call the level). But somehow subconciously or by the ambigouse def given by the CoP going like "Oh Bielman position is such a difficult position, let's cut her some slack for not centering." so here you go +2/+3 GOEs.
average opinionated skate fan
Seems to me that Irina may have received " +points" on individual moves that they were really rewarding for "variety"...she does Biellman spins on both sides (I've always thought that she should really rack up points here by holding the positions and rotations for longer than 2 seconds in between switching feet.) This would apply too, for the "leg arched over the back" spirals. I don't think you can call these "Biellman spirals", as they aren't a tradmark postion of Denise's. She skated with a variety of spiral positions, and as one poster noted, there is a reason they nicknamed the position for her. It was WAY tall in the air with uber flexiblity and very, very centered and fast.
She may be getting rewarded extra +points on spirals that aren't really for quality, but because of the risk involved in doing an arch back spiral on a deep edge...if you fall off the edge, you will fall down. In most skaters spirals, they use both arm and body stregnth to balance them..striving for extention. It looks as if Irina is looking for "stretch" to demonstate liberness and masking a past
body line problem in the spiral. I think she uses her upper body strengh to balance her extended "arch-back catch foot" spiral, all the time upping the value in reality by upping the risk factor rather than the execution.
We still call the rule on no more than 2 jumps of each kind "Zayak". Are we also gonig to have a "Slutskaya" limiting each spin?
Irina's Bielmann spins almost always travel, sometimes badly, yet she doesn't get the deduction for traveling. When she changes from one Bielmann to the next, she often struggles mightily to get the leg up, and the spin is slow and labored as a result. But that doesn't get deducted either. She is being held up not only in the PCS scores, but also in the GOE on her multiple Bielmann moves.
Irina is a very popular skater; the most in Europe. I truly believe whatever she does will be considered special and she will be rewarded for attempts as well as accomplishments. No need for a rule on limiting same spins until after Torino. (Presume she will retire at that venue.)