Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: Spirals and the new scoring system

  1. #1
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    29

    Spirals and the new scoring system

    Does anyone know what base level would be given to a spiral like Sasha Cohen's? It seems like Irina's bielman spiral would be given a higher base than Sasha's spiral but Sasha would receive a much higher bonus.

  2. #2
    Crazy Armchair Fan/Resident Nerd
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    San Antonio, TX
    Posts
    361
    I don't know as to what base exactly Cohen's spiral would receive, although in all the judges scoring reports I looked at last year, it was easily snagging a Level 3 from the caller

  3. #3
    Figure Skating Fan Hikaru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Panama
    Posts
    854

    Level for Spirals

    OK,according to the ISU rulebook, this is what you look for in the spiral step sequence.

    Definition of Spiral Variations
    Simple Variation (of position): A spiral position with limited leg and or arm movement. EXAMPLE: Bending of free leg, bending of skating leg, changes in arm positions, turning of head (all of these not affecting main body core position) and independent from skating edge or direction.

    Difficult Variation (of position): EXAMPLE: Twisting the upper body affecting the main body core and balance, bending or pulling the upper body towards the skating leg, moving free leg from behind to the side of the body while maintaining free leg height, obtaining the Bielmann position.


    This is what you look for the different levels:

    LEVEL ONE:
    Element must be executed according to rule book.

    LEVEL TWO:
    Element includes three of the following features :
    •Sequence incorporates three or more spiral positions (mandatory for Short Program)
    One difficult variations of position
    •Spirals are skating both forward and backward
    •Use of both edges

    LEVEL THREE:
    Element includes five of the following features :
    •Sequence incorporates three or more spiral positions plus:
    Two difficult variation of positions
    •Spirals are skating both forward and backward
    •Use of both edges
    •Unsupported change of edge during one spiral (3 second hold following the change)
    •Unsupported spiral position with the free leg either sideways or forward
    •Free leg in a total split position either sideway or forward, but holding with one arm

  4. #4
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    20,185
    Thanks Hikaru for that explanation of this element.

    I for one think one beautifully executed spiral is enough in any program just as I think one spread eagle, one ina bauer, one circular footwork, one straightline footwork is enough.

    The spiral should be as difficult as possible for the individual skater. Too many spirals disrupt the choreography, imo, especially when they are hand held (ugly).

    There is another type of spiral, such as the 'open fan' where the leg is lifted in front and travels to the side and then to the back in the correct spiral position. This can be quite lovely if done with out bobbles.

    All those descriptions of Levels are nonsense. If the spiral is beautiful, that is enough and it should not be graded higher than a spread eagle. For me, the spiral is just a Move in the Field. JMO

    Joe

    Joe

  5. #5
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    3,853
    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    All those descriptions of Levels are nonsense. If the spiral is beautiful, that is enough and it should not be graded higher than a spread eagle. For me, the spiral is just a Move in the Field. JMO
    A "spiral step sequence" has been a required element in the ladies' short program since 1989, and some years in the pairs short. A single spiral, however beautiful or however long held, would not fulfill the requirement.

    I don't remember exactly which year the "well-balanced program" rules started requiring ladies to do spiral *sequences* in the long program. Somewhere around 1999, I think. In any case, several years before COP came in.

  6. #6
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    7,547
    I have a feeling that rmore detailed rules concerning spirals, as well as the overuse of Biellmanns, will eventually be adopted, but not until after Torino.

    It will happen because too many skaters who can do Biellmanns will follow Irina's lead and put them everywhere to max out points. I

    f you look at a picture of Irina's Biellmann spiral, it is actually not very attractive. She grabs the blade of her skate with one hand, then holds on to the wrist of the grabbing hand with her other hand. OTOH, Denise Biellmann's spiral created a very pretty picture, because she had long legs, and the curve of the leg and the arm holding it had great extension and a graceful balance.

    Irina has short legs and the effect just isn't very aesthetic.

  7. #7
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    3,853
    Well, I don't think that the rules will ever address the body proportions of the skaters. Is this a dog show?

    Should skaters who aren't blessed with the perfectly shaped body for aesthetic purposes be forbidden from performing moves that will gain them more points?

    Currently the criteria for a level 3 spiral sequence require "two difficult positions." It would be entirely reasonable, IMO, to change this to "two different difficult positions." If they ever add a level 4, that should definitely be taken into consideration.

  8. #8
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    7,547
    Obviously, if looking good while doing a Biellmann was a requirement, Irina wouldn't be getting all those extra points.

    I do think there will eventually be a rule limiting the number of times a position such as a Biellmann can be used in a program. The main reason the rule was put in for jumps was because Zayak could do the triple so easily, and she did it entirely too many times. I think the Biellmann is relatively easy for Irina, since she's been doing it for so long.

  9. #9
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    106
    I think people get caught up with the positions in a spiral. The reason Irina gets +GOE on her spirals is because of the speed, pattern, and flow. Her edges are usually good but they have seemed very wobbly since she started doing the Biellman spiral. Sasha's spirals have pretty positions but her pattern isn't always great. The speed, flow and edging isn't great on them either, but she's good enough in them that she'll receive +GOE's.

  10. #10
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    20,185
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly
    A "spiral step sequence" has been a required element in the ladies' short program since 1989, and some years in the pairs short. A single spiral, however beautiful or however long held, would not fulfill the requirement.

    I don't remember exactly which year the "well-balanced program" rules started requiring ladies to do spiral *sequences* in the long program. Somewhere around 1999, I think. In any case, several years before COP came in.
    I have no doubt that the spiral sequence is written in stone in the book of Mustdoos. I was just expressing my opinion and I will stick by it and say again: Too many spirals one after another spoil the choreography.

    Joe

  11. #11
    Crazy Armchair Fan/Resident Nerd
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    San Antonio, TX
    Posts
    361
    Quote Originally Posted by Hikaru
    OK,according to the ISU rulebook, this is what you look for in the spiral step sequence.

    Definition of Spiral Variations
    Simple Variation (of position): A spiral position with limited leg and or arm movement. EXAMPLE: Bending of free leg, bending of skating leg, changes in arm positions, turning of head (all of these not affecting main body core position) and independent from skating edge or direction.

    Difficult Variation (of position): EXAMPLE: Twisting the upper body affecting the main body core and balance, bending or pulling the upper body towards the skating leg, moving free leg from behind to the side of the body while maintaining free leg height, obtaining the Bielmann position.


    This is what you look for the different levels:

    LEVEL ONE:
    Element must be executed according to rule book.

    LEVEL TWO:
    Element includes three of the following features :
    •Sequence incorporates three or more spiral positions (mandatory for Short Program)
    One difficult variations of position
    •Spirals are skating both forward and backward
    •Use of both edges

    LEVEL THREE:
    Element includes five of the following features :
    •Sequence incorporates three or more spiral positions plus:
    Two difficult variation of positions
    •Spirals are skating both forward and backward
    •Use of both edges
    •Unsupported change of edge during one spiral (3 second hold following the change)
    •Unsupported spiral position with the free leg either sideways or forward
    •Free leg in a total split position either sideway or forward, but holding with one arm

    OK, so now I'm confused ; while I concede the Biellmann qualifies as a "difficult position", it isn't a "total split position" nor is is "unsupported" (you can't have an unsupported Biellmann, lol). I agree that the judges are probably recognising the fact that Irina's COE Biellmann is difficult and I'm aware that the judges deal with rules pretty fluidly as it is, but am I right in saying that technically speaking, Irina's spiral would not be a Level 3?
    Last edited by Matt; 02-03-2005 at 06:20 PM. Reason: Spelling

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •