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Thread: Sarah's 3/3 vs. Irina's 3/3

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    Sarah's 3/3 vs. Irina's 3/3

    I wish I had a list of all the amazing 3/3's Sarah did during her competitive career. I know she is one of the most consistent jumpers in US history, and barely missed the 3/3.
    How many 3/3's did Sarah land? How many has Slutskaya landed? I know, some are going to bring up the issue of Sarah's "cheated" 3/3's, so I want to know how many of Irina's 3/3's were actually "clean."
    IMO, Sarah's 3/3's were beautiful and her 3loop/3loop was better than Lipinski's.
    How many 3/3's has Kwan landed? And what about Bobek? Did she ever land one?

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Michelle has landed 11 in major competitons. I don't know about the others.

    MM

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    Lovin' the Kween ... Now and Forever
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    I don't know the numbers for the others either. Going from memory (which gets to be a more dangerous thing the older I get, LOL), it seems like Sarah has landed more 3/3's than Irina. Probably Irina's were of better quality, but that doesn't take away the fact that Sarah landed them. Also, Irina landed a 3Z/3R ... which is much more difficult than any of the other 3/3's. But Irina has not been all that consistent with landing them overall. Maybe 3 years ago she had a few comps where she did so successfully, but after that she really did not. I think this year she has landed one maybe?

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    Irina's landed 3sal/3loop twice this year in competition. Once in exhibition. I don't keep up with how many she does from year to year. It's extremely humbling to me that she is even able to land a 3/3 at all. Under dire health straits we see this athlete who's willing to put out the hard work and take the effort to maintain her skating at top form. It would have been so easy for Irina to use her health as an excuse and just skate tepid programs, but we see an athlete who still is willing to go the distance and push hard with more difficult spirals, spins and elements. Thats the heart of a champion. Its so obvious that she loves this sport deeply and that she wants this sport to continue to thrive even after her reign on the ice is over.

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    How, exactly, is Irina pushing the sport? The only spins she does are beillman and she refuses to do anything else. Does she have the ability to do the beautiful spins Sasha Cohen does? Or is she limited to the beillmans?
    Also, someone posted that her 3/3 landed at a comp. this season was actually cheated and should've been downgraded. I don't know why the judges didn't call it as such.
    wvgal, I don't think Irina is doing a smart thing by pushing herself to compete. Why is she risking her health? I could understand with the teenager Lipinski that didn't know any better. But Irina, the adult, does. I hope this will all be worth it for her.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Irina isn't doing anything she hasn't done before except grabbing her free skate with two hands and holding them in a position of a U. She's getting lots of points for that. It's better than her doing the classic spiral which she would get minus points.

    Joe

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    Gliding Along dlkksk8fan's Avatar
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    Irina isn't doing anything she hasn't done before except grabbing her free skate with two hands and holding them in a position of a U. She's getting lots of points for that.
    I don't understand how holding ones leg during a spiral sequence is worth more points then a spiral that is not held with a hand. I would think that doing a spiral using your back and leg muscles would be a lot harder to hold then using your hand to hold the leg up. Why is the COP giving higher point value for holding the leg?

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    Figure Skating Fan Hikaru's Avatar
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    Good question. I think that they put the Biellmann position as a difficult one for spirals maybe for the balance that the skater has to keep. But I also think that a spiral with no holding of legs is among the difficult positions. Actually the levels of difficulty has much more to do with the different changes in the spiral step sequence, as there are certain requirements to have a level 2 or 3 (I don't have the document handy, but I was reading it some days ago). IMO I think it is harder to hold the leg just with pure muscle strengh, but I'm no expert. It would be silly for Irina not to use her Biellmann position when it is considered a difficult move, and I have nothing against her using it. The only complaint I would have is that she uses it a lot during the program, instead of exploring other movements, something Sussie W. was saying during the GP.

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    and she doesn't look very steady or stable while doing this position numerous times. I've also noticed her spins travel. Is she getting deductions for this?

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    I don't know if she's getting negative GOEs or not, but not only do her spins travel, but the spiral is unsteady.

    However, what also makes the Biellman spiral difficult is that you don't have your arms free for balance or to catch yourself if you fall.


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    As far as I know, Nicole Bobek's only triple-triple in competition was 3(f)lutz-3toe in the long program at 1995 Worlds, with a double three on the second landing IIRC. She also had a good 3toe-3toe in practice when she was "on" but never tried it in competition.

    Slutskaya has added several forward edge variations to her spins this season -- I was most impressed with the ~5 revolutions of outside-edge camel at the beginning of her combination spin in her long program at Euros this year. Many skaters, including Slutskaya in many past competitions, only hold the opening camel position at the beginning of a combination for 1-2 revolutions before escaping to the following position, usually sitspin.

    I think that the back sit-to-back (catch) camel on her non-change-of-foot combination is a new transition for her this year. In any case, that whole spin is not something she's done in the past.

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    The reasons the Bielmann is everywhere in Irina's programs are:
    (1) The position is easy for her
    (2) She gets lots of points for it

    The extra points are given because the position is difficult for most skaters. Irina lucked out, in that a position that is easy for her is worth so many points. I do agree that variety is just as important as difficulty, but I have no illusions that the CoP rules with regard to variety will change before the Olympics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrincessLeppard
    I don't know if she's getting negative GOEs or not, but not only do her spins travel, but the spiral is unsteady.

    However, what also makes the Biellman spiral difficult is that you don't have your arms free for balance or to catch yourself if you fall.


    There is also the issue of head position. To properly execute your biellman spiral, you have to have your head thrown back somewhat. Unlike in a traditional sprial like Sasha or Michelle where you can see the ice in front of you/below you etc., in this position your sight distance is limited. While it is unlikely there is something in front of her on the ice to worry about, there is a certain feeling of security in knowing that you can look down and see the ice in the other positions.

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    I think the interesting thing about Irina's Biellman spins is that she doesn't actually do them all that well. If you compare her Biellmans, for example, to Denise Biellman's own spins, well, there really is no comparison! What is impressive, though, is that Irina can do them on both feet.

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    Not so ackward in pants

    Used to think that Irina's Biellman spiral was ackward, but not that I've seen it done while wearing pants, I have to say I thought it was quite stunning. Something about the complete curve of her body from the top of her head to the end of the skate was accentuated dramatically by the black.
    Linny

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