What has Suspect Judging done to YOU?? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

What has Suspect Judging done to YOU??

Jimena

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 26, 2004
chuckm said:
What many people have complained of, specifically, was Irina's PCS scores for the FS, which seemed much too high for this performance.

Few have said Irina did not deserve the gold medal, just that she should not have won the FS. And people could have arrived at that conclusion just from looking at the protocols. Irina's PCS scores weren't much lower than they were for her excellent performances in the GP, and that just didn't gibe with the technical content of her program.

What I noticed, after seeing Irina's performance, was that Irina also got +2 GOEs for the layback spin immediately following the fall on the lutz. That spin was much slower and more labored than usual for Irina, and IMO did not rate a +2. Irina also received +GOE for her doubled loop.

I felt that the judges were boosting Irina's scores, based on reputation, not only in the PCS scores, but also on the technical elements.

There is no doubt that Irina is a far more skilled skater than any of her competitors, but that was not evident at this particular segment of the competition. The judges were supposed to be scoring that performance, not the performance Irina usually puts forth.

I've read a few articles that have only mentioned Irina winning as the problem. And quite a few of the people that were complaining about the competition did the same. They never went into the PCS issue or talked about Irina's SP lead.

I agree with what you say. I think Irina was overscored on PCS (I'd have to watch the program again to see if I agree with you on the overscoring of her TE). But then again, I thought Julia was overscored on PCS, too. She came in second to Irina on that part of the judging. Reputation scoring is still a reality, and well known skaters have benefited from it for years- including Yags, Plushy, Sasha, Michelle, Irina, S&Z, S&P, B&S and too many ice dancers to mention. I'm hesitant to call that corruption, though. I'd rather call it incompetency, and an inability to differentiate the five components of PCS. They're still using PCS as the second mark on the 6.0 system.
 

Doggygirl

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Some great points!!

ChuckM, I just want to say I enjoy reading your posts on this subject because you always take the time to back up your opinions with specific arguments. I too think much work needs to be done on the Component scores side of the judging equation.

Jimena, I have enjoyed reading your posts as well. I think you touch the *heart* of the problem. I think the PERCEPTION of FS judging is like a raging wild fire. With all the secrecy, we will probably never know if the reality is as bad as the perception or not. Watching the extreme reactions of "Scandal!! Corruption!! Collusion!!" following Euros, especially for the Ladies event I think is a great example. The ISU has EARNED the perception of FS judging they are currently dealing with because of the ugly history - judges getting caught, and the ISU doing little to nothing about it. It has become very easy and logical to assume scandals are taking place, hence the immediate and emotional reactions.

This perception of shady judging will probably do far more damage to the sport than any realities of shady judging could ever do. Tragic!! (IMO of course) The ISU has their work cut out for them.

DG

DG
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Kwanford Wife said:
At this point, I've read a million threads arguing over Michelle, Irina, DivaKwara & Cohen and their chances at Worlds. Forget about it. The results won't matter. I'm convinced that the OGM in '06 will be handed on a silver platter to Michelle Kwan. Because the fix is in... Why you ask? Because after SLC & her apparent intention to retire ~ she's back at Skate America because USFSA "made me an offer I couldn't refuse" (direct Michelle Kwan quote from SA '03 fluff piece) who needed a name after Tara & Sarah retired...
:laugh::laugh::laugh: As I Kwan fan, I have to admit there is a little part of me that hopes you are right!

I remember that competition well. It was the turning point in the second half of Michelle's career. She also said, again quoting the Corleone's, "Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in!"

I, too, have wondered about the deal she got for doing Skate America that year. Advance advertising for the event touted Olympians Sarah Hughes, Alexei Yagudin, and Berezhnaya and Sikharudlize (maybe Sale and Pelletiere were listed originally, too). But a month before the contest the pairs teams decided to retire from eligible competition, then Sarah withdrew with an injury, and in the event, Alexei withdrew before the long program.

The USFSA, the ISU and most importantly the television networks and their sponsors were left with a turkey. Who you gonna call? Michelle to the rescue!

I don't know what the details were of the "deal she couldn't refuse," but I bet the corporate sponsors did some heavy leaning. I can easily imagine that Shep Goldberg was well aware that he and Michelle were in the driver's seat, LOL. I hope so.

Anyway, save the show she did! I was lucky enough to be there. It was a huge week-long, city-wide Michelle love fest, although Jenny Kirk (second in the short) and AP McDonough (second in the free) also got some ink. I hope Michelle stays in for the 2007 U.S. Nationals, also scheduled for Spokane.

Michelle skated a super short and debuted Aranjuez in the long. We could see her recovering her joy of skating right before our very eyes. It was like she was saying, hey, I'm not though yet.

This propelled her on to Nationals, where she brought the house down and prevailed over Sarah (silver). Then Worlds -- she caught a break in that it was in the U.S. that year -- and again raised the roof with yet another "all-time greatest" performance. Michelle was back!
And as usual, I feel the worse for the Cohen fans, who get a LOT of respect in my book for their loyalty, because they will suffer the terrible position of her getting caught in the crossfire...
I think Worlds is a very important competition for Sasha this year. She has not skated well this season so far, but she is fully capable of pulling it all together in Moscow. This would give her a big boost of confidence heading into the Olympic season. If she skates well enough, maybe someone will make her an offer that she can't refuse.:)

Back on topic, I do not see any reason to be fearful about the judging at Worlds. Anything can happen, but I do not see any favoritism being shown to any particular skater so far this season. Irina deserved all of her wins. Whether her health and stamina hold up is the big question. Michelle has had a blah year and hasn't yet shown what she can do with Bolero. Arakawa has skated like she wishes she didn't have to. Ando (my pick) has been taken to the woodshed by the judges. Maybe Rochette will peak at the right time. I do not expect any controversy or scandal.

Mathman
 
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Kwanford Wife

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Moi? Anti-Kwan? Are you serious?

fscric said:
Wow, I have to hand it to you - anti-Kwan to the extreme.

You misunderstand... .I am a die-hard Kwan fan, just check out my posting name. I'm not anti-Kwan, just super realistic & totally cynical. My error is in trying to be logical at 1:00 a.m.

I get frustrated with the amount of infighting skating fans insist upon when we KNOW the system doesn't work & the federations don't stand up for the sport & allow the ISU to run this sport into the ground. The CoP, anonomous judges, lack of ABC coverage for Worlds, the GP... Come on! Its just a bit much. If the USFSA forced the issue, we'd see reform. Why? Because that's where the money is... But they haven't & until 2006 they won't... I believe Speedy even said that changes won't be made until after Turin. Does that sound like an attempt to bring back credibility? No. Does this bode well for the future? Absolutly not.

Irina has stated her intention to retire after this Worlds, DivaKwara will most likely retire this year (imo), and Sasha, well Sasha is Sasha ~ you hate to count her out, but in a sport that rewards consisitency, its hard to picture her as a factor. The emerging talents will be around another four years IF they don't win in 06. Who does that leave to reap the benefit of '06? Kwan. In all her glory. Yay Michelle. And you know she'll put down a performance that will rock... leaving the casual fan with a result they can understand, ala Dan Jansen.

That's all I'm saying... just not very well. And to think, I get paid to write for a living...

Y'all have a good day!

Kwanford Wife
"i started concentrating so hard on my vision, that I lost sight"
 

lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Irina has stated her intention to retire after this Worlds


I thought she changed her mind and was planning on sticking around for the Olympics. Did she change it again?
 

Kwanford Wife

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
lavender said:
I thought she changed her mind and was planning on sticking around for the Olympics. Did she change it again?

Hey Lavender,

The last thing I heard was that because of her health issues & wanting to have a baby, she was going to retire after Worlds in Moscow.... But I could be wrong as I was at Target when Irina called to tell me her intentions :biggrin:

Kwanford Wife
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Jimena - I don't want this to become a she said he said.

There are fans on GS who believe that the judges never cheat. We had a very vocieferous poster who always analzyed that the judges were correct in their decision. But she changed her tune when Sarah won the Olys.

If I find a judge cheating I want it brought to the forefront and have him ostracized. I don't care who it is and what kind of circus is made of it.

Skaters work hard all year and many for years and deserve a just score for their hard work. If I take the side of the skater over the judge and you disagree then we are completely at odds. But that is ok. I not only respect your view but I also know where you are coming from.

Can you honestly say that there was no controversy in SLC because it would not be constructive to say something like that?

As per my first sentence, you have the last word.

Joe
 

brad640

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
The worst thing about judging scandals is that they invite unfair criticisms of great skaters that I love. The first time I noticed this was in 94 when there was a supposed scandal because the Oksana/Nancy vote had broken down by block voting lines. Many in the press felt that it was their patriotic duty to bash Oksana because they thought Nancy should have won. I remember reading comments about Oksana’s broadway free program as lacking technical merit. One in particular used a comment that Galina Zmievskaya had made that she helped Oksana feel the music “in her fingertips” and that Oksana was using her arm and hand movements to entice the eastern judges rather than skating an athletic program like Nancy.

Also in 94 many of the same “journalists” made degrading comments about Urmanov after he finished ahead of Elvis. The debate seemed to be that Urmanov won because he skated to classical music that the judges liked. From that point on, Urmanov was the western media’s symbol of what was wrong with men’s skating. When he presented his Swan Lake program after the Olympics and had many problems due to injury and conditioning, many articles enjoyed ridiculing his costume, choreography, etc.

Of course, it happened again in Salt Lake City. Many comments seemed to suggest that Anton Sikharudlize was obviously a terrible skater because he stepped out of a double axel. Then at the embarrassing double medal ceremony there was condescending commentary about the Russians’ sportsmanship. The scandals do not detract from my enjoyment of watching skating, but they can bring out the worst in others.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I don't know why there should have been criticism of the Russians' sportsmanship at SLC. B&S had done nothing to be criticized for. They weren't the ones who went to the media and cried and moaned until they got what they claimed they deserved. The shoe was very much on the other foot.
 

Doggygirl

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Brad640....

You raise an excellent point as does Joe. It is the hard working skaters that bear the brunt of any actual cheating.

Brad, you are so right about any suspicion of cheating often being directed towards a skater in the end. Many threads on many internet boards where the Euros scoring has been discussed have turned into a bash fest of Irina's skating. And as you point out, this is a historic trap that both media and fans tend to fall into. While we have all heard stories (both real and suspect) about collusion, etc. in FS judging, I've never heard a story where a skater was personally involved in it. The only example I can think of where a skater was personally involved in trying to manipulate a result was the Tonya / Nancy thing, and for once there were no judges involved in the scandal. Come to think of it, I bet there were folks in Federations and the ISU and judges that were sighing with RELIEF over a scandal that didn't involve them.

This is a great reminder for all of us to be mindful of how we "treat" the skaters in general v. the skaters' performances that day when questioning the judging of an event. No need to treat the hard working skaters badly when the judging is in question.

And in the mean time, I'm still wondering how I can get myself back to being interested in Ice Dance as a competitive sport.

DG
 

lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Kwanford Wife said:
Hey Lavender,

The last thing I heard was that because of her health issues & wanting to have a baby, she was going to retire after Worlds in Moscow.... But I could be wrong as I was at Target when Irina called to tell me her intentions :biggrin:

Kwanford Wife

:laugh:


Well I was a fan way before Michelle but she's the reason why I even bother with this sport these days.
 
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chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I would be very surprised if Irina retired at the end of this season. If she doesn't skate at Torino, Russia will have a ZERO chance at any medal for the Ladies. As long as Irina is healthy enough to skate, I think the RFSF will insist on her competing.
 

brad640

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
chuckm said:
I don't know why there should have been criticism of the Russians' sportsmanship at SLC. B&S had done nothing to be criticized for. They weren't the ones who went to the media and cried and moaned until they got what they claimed they deserved. The shoe was very much on the other foot.

Chuck - you are right that no one openly criticized the Russians for their sportsmanship. The thing that I did not like was the way Sandra Bezic and Scott Hamilton were commenting during the second medal ceremony. The impression that I got from their tone was that they felt like the Russians knew they were not the best and wasn't it nice that they were able to recognize the greatness of S&P even though they would love to keep the gold to themselves. I thought Sandra and Scott were incredibly condescending toward B&S throughout the scandal. They probably would have preferred for B&S to lay the gold medals at S&P's feet!
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Kwanford Wife said:
You misunderstand... .I am a die-hard Kwan fan, just check out my posting name. I'm not anti-Kwan, just super realistic & totally cynical. My error is in trying to be logical at 1:00 a.m.
But you can see why there was some confusion on this point. In your first post you did not say (as you did in your second) that you expected Michelle to give a great performance in Torino and that she would face little competition. What you said was, Michelle will be given the gold medal on a silver platter because the fix is in.

And how do we know the fix is in? Because she let it slip that she was offered a deal that she couldn’t refuse in 2003 (actually 2002).

So you can understand why it seemed like you were accusing Michelle of being complicit in something shady.

Mathman
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I want very much for Michelle to win gold in Torino, but I want her to deserve to win it. I think if there was a big flap and lots of controversy over her winning it, she would feel much like Paul Hamm did this past summer--very conflicted and unable to enjoy the victory. Even though the CAS eventually ruled he won the medal fairly, there will always be negativity connected with that gold medal.
 

Jimena

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 26, 2004
Joesitz said:
Can you honestly say that there was no controversy in SLC because it would not be constructive to say something like that?

Hi Joe,

I'm not saying there was not controversy in SLC. I believe there was a lot of things going on backstage that we will never know. Saying that there is no controversy or that there is no cheating is not constructive either, IMO. Both extremes are equally harmful IMO: saying that there is no cheating, and calling the judges corrupt every time there's a result we might not agree with.

Look, something went down in SLC. But we never got to the end of the story because people focused (short sightedly, IMO) on getting S&P the double gold, and once that happened ISU could breath a sigh of relief and conduct their "investigation" as they pleased. That was the biggest mistake and it hinged on emotional reactions from fans and the press (and Sandra Bezic and Scott Hamilton).

I also agree with Doggygirl, not surprisingly, on this:

The ISU has EARNED the perception of FS judging they are currently dealing with because of the ugly history - judges getting caught, and the ISU doing little to nothing about it. It has become very easy and logical to assume scandals are taking place, hence the immediate and emotional reactions.

And brad640 said this:

The worst thing about judging scandals is that they invite unfair criticisms of great skaters that I love.

ITA. This has always made me very angry. What did the skaters have to do with any of this? Most likely, absolutely nothing.
 

wvgal57

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Unsubstantiated again

Irina has stated her intention to retire after this Worlds

Would you be kind enough to point me to this statement by Irina?

Quite to the contrary, she just answered questions by correspondents at Europeans press conference and she said that her plans for '06 are the same as they were this time last year - to skate and to compete. She said that as an athelete she personally thrives on the competition and that sitting out last year was the hardest thing she's ever done. She indicates that as long as she is physically able you can bet that she'll be out there willing to compete.

When questioned specifically about the Turino '06 games she promised to pour her soul into her programs for this special year. Word is that she's already chosen the music and is in talks with choreographer.
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
brad640 said:
The impression that I got from their tone was that they felt like the Russians knew they were not the best and wasn't it nice that they were able to recognize the greatness of S&P even though they would love to keep the gold to themselves.
ITA. In fact, it struck me that the one thing that still hurts Anton when he speaks about the scandal in interviews is the portrayal of him and Elena as incompetent skaters who were given the gold for no reason other than being from Russia.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Ptichka said:
ITA. In fact, it struck me that the one thing that still hurts Anton when he speaks about the scandal in interviews is the portrayal of him and Elena as incompetent skaters who were given the gold for no reason other than being from Russia.
This is to Anton: No, not in the least. Nobody thinks that at all. What most figure skating fans think is that Berezhnya and Sikarudlize were the class of the field, and it took a perfect skate by Sale and Pelletiere, plus the vocal suppport of a home-town crowd, to make it close.

Not to mention, B&S conducted themselves with dignity throughout the fiasco, even in hostile situations where they had every reason to fear for their safety!

Mathman
 

Jimena

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 26, 2004
Mathman said:
This is to Anton: No, not in the least. Nobody thinks that at all. What most figure skating fans think is that Berezhnya and Sikarudlize were the class of the field, and it took a perfect skate by Sale and Pelletiere, plus the vocal suppport of a home-town crowd, to make it close.

Not to mention, B&S conducted themselves with dignity throughout the fiasco, even in hostile situations where they had every reason to fear for their safety!

Mathman

Gosh, I'd love to think that that's the way most FS fans think but from what I've heard from fans themselves, and read on the internet, that's not the case. In fact, a lot of them seem to agree with the way B&S were portrayed, and with them only winning because they are Russian. It makes me very sad. :cry:

PS- S&P's skate was not perfect either. Close, but not completely. :)
 
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