What has Suspect Judging done to YOU??

From one Detroiter to Another...

Mathman said:

OK, but what about my self-proclaimed role of knight in shining armor protecting all my boys and girls from the bad, bad trolls of the Internet?

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You maketh me swoonith into my mote!!!!

Plus, I just noticed that you are from Detroit and I'm terribly homesick at the moment... even though it's like 60 here in Richmond... Tell me oh gallant knight, is Ferndale still as fabulous as when I left?!?

Kwanford Wife
"Detroit Rock City!!" Kiss @ Tiger Stadium '79

STL_Blues_fan said:

Call me naive but I don't believe there was a fix. A&P did not need the Russian vote in exchange for French to win the OGM (they didn't get the vote anyways, the Russian put L&A first, IIRC). LaGougne "confessed" once in front of how many people (and wasn't Stapleford one of them)? And how do we know Ms. Sally isn't the one to make it up?LaGougne recanted right away, and she did say that in her heart B&S were the true winners that night. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want, but I will remain "naive" until I hear or see (on tape) the "confession", the tactics they used to get this emotional wreck to "confess" and see all the backstage dealings.

Yana

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The bigest trouble I felt about the ppl who blindly accuse LaGougne for so called "cheating" was so illogical. They were based on what Ms. Sally said LaGougne addmit "Under Pressure", which was bullied by a NA referee at hotel loby. While she was under pressure diddn't necessary mean she voted against her counsiouse. LaGougne also said she voted to B/S according to counsiouse that she truely felt B/S deserve to be first. For those who chose to believe LaGougne's "Under Pressure" why not believe she also "Voted by her heart"? Both were her own words.

STL_Blues_fan said:

There are competitors out there who know how to loose in dignity. They accept their loss. They either choose to move on or to stay and try to win again. They congratulate the winner, wheather they agree with the judges or not. That's called sportsmanship. Sale and Peltier ARE NOT those people. The way they behaved after getting (what I believe deep in my heart!) a just silver medal was repulsive and unfair to B&S who did not cheat.

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You are right S/P are not those ppl.

But B&S are, they lost to S&P at 2001Worlds (where I happen to think they should've won, Sale singled her 2A a bigger mistake than Anton made one year after) but they diddn't loose their dignity. One year late B&S shown up at that 2nd Golden Medal celemery to make S/P legitimate speaks volumn of their sportsmanship. Which won them even more dignity, JMO.

mzheng said:

The bigest trouble I felt about the ppl who blindly accuse LaGougne for so called "cheating" was so illogical. They were based on what Ms. Sally said LaGougne addmit "Under Pressure", which was bullied by a NA referee at hotel loby. While she was under pressure diddn't necessary mean she voted against her counsiouse. LaGougne also said she voted to B/S according to counsiouse that she truely felt B/S deserve to be first. For those who chose to believe LaGougne's "Under Pressure" why not believe she also "Voted by her heart"?

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I think you have the events mixed up. LeGougne admitted pressure to Stapleford by the elevators, when Stapleford gave her the freeze out. The NA referee (Pfennig) was brought in after the fact. LeGougne's admission to him was witnessed by all of the judges on the panel in an official meeting.

There's a big difference between admitting to having been pressured and claiming she would have voted the same way anyway because she voted by her heart. The first is something she has sworn to expose, by the contract she makes with the ISU in order to judge. It's one of the obligations of being a judge. By the rules of the sport, being pressured taints her vote, pure and simple, if she doesn't report it.

Of course, whistleblowers are routinely trashed, and it would have been career suicide. That's why Lavoie and a Swiss official didn't report LeGougne as having said to them during the Fall of 2001 that she was planning to vote for B&S because Sanaia was her friend. (The judges for the Olympics had already been announced, months before the event.) They knew they were sitting on career dynamite. Lavoie testified to this after SLC and was sanctioned. (I'm not sure about the Swiss official , who was also a witness.)

hockeyfan228 said:

Of course, whistleblowers are routinely trashed, and it would have been career suicide. That's why Lavoie and a Swiss official didn't report LeGougne as having said to them during the Fall of 2001 that she was planning to vote for B&S because Sanaia was her friend. (The judges for the Olympics had already been announced, months before the event.) They knew they were sitting on career dynamite. Lavoie testified to this after SLC and was sanctioned. (I'm not sure about the Swiss official , who was also a witness.)

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Well some whistleblowers just as bad, they blow the whistle only when their end deal was broken. As the old chinese saying goes "The flies do not stingy eggs without cracks".

Kwanford Wife said:

As for the dual gold & Sale's bad sportmanship in the K&C... It actually benefitted both teams in the long run... What other two teams in the history of skating have gone on to such lucrative pro careers? Its all relative.

Kwanford Wife

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There are some things more important than money. I would bet anything that despite their comments that now they are more famous than had they solely won the medal, Elena and Anton wish that this fiasco had never occurred. I can't speak from experience, but I imagine that winning an OGM is such a tremendous experience that the winner is on cloud nine for a few weeks after (ie Tara). To this day, B&S can't truly say that they "won" the gold medal. They have to qualify that statement. Also to have to face the US media the day after they won their title (and their English wasn't that fluent) and have to answer questions about their win tarnished their medal experience. Just looking at Anton and Elena's distressed faces during their interviews and listening to their relief that the "audience didn't throw tomatoes at them" (Anton) makes me think that all the money in the world couldn't erase this nightmare. Even to this day, B&S seem rather withdrawn as if they don't really feel welcome working in this country (that's just the vibe I get from those two).

As for S&P, I guess there was a little vindication in that those two lost a whole year of earnings b/c their manager was really greedy and asked for such exorbitant fees that no tour hired them in the Olympic year.

As for S&P's start value: I always thought Jaime should have received a 2 tenth deduction for the pit stains in her costume. She should use that creststrips money to get some botox for those crow's feet and armpits.

mzheng said:

Well some whistleblowers just as bad, they blow the whistle only when their end deal was broken. As the old chinese saying goes "The flies do not stingy eggs without cracks".

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We're not always on the same page but I've never seen truer words!!!!!!

soogar said:

There are some things more important than money. I would bet anything that despite their comments that now they are more famous than had they solely won the medal, Elena and Anton wish that this fiasco had never occurred. I can't speak from experience, but I imagine that winning an OGM is such a tremendous experience that the winner is on cloud nine for a few weeks after (ie Tara). To this day, B&S can't truly say that they "won" the gold medal. They have to qualify that statement. Also to have to face the US media the day after they won their title (and their English wasn't that fluent) and have to answer questions about their win tarnished their medal experience. Just looking at Anton and Elena's distressed faces during their interviews and listening to their relief that the "audience didn't throw tomatoes at them" (Anton) makes me think that all the money in the world couldn't erase this nightmare. Even to this day, B&S seem rather withdrawn as if they don't really feel welcome working in this country (that's just the vibe I get from those two).

As for S&P, I guess there was a little vindication in that those two lost a whole year of earnings b/c their manager was really greedy and asked for such exorbitant fees that no tour hired them in the Olympic year.

As for S&P's start value: I always thought Jaime should have received a 2 tenth deduction for the pit stains in her costume. She should use that creststrips money to get some botox for those crow's feet and armpits.

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You start out so reasonable and then something happens... its so sad... Why all the nastiness? Did you have a bad day today? Please. Its not as funny now. Let it go.

Kwanford Wife

mzheng said:

Well some whistleblowers just as bad, they blow the whistle only when their end deal was broken. As the old chinese saying goes "The flies do not stingy eggs without cracks".

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Wise saying, but in this case, it didn't apply to Lavoie, and he was sanctioned for not blowing the whistle before the event.

hockeyfan228 said:

Wise saying, but in this case, it didn't apply to Lavoie, and he was sanctioned for not blowing the whistle before the event.

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And he should've been sanctioned due to blatant nationalist bias when scoring S&P and B&S. I don't know how he ended up on most of the pairs juding panels (conspiracy????? ). His scores always stuck out like a sore thumb to me.

I don't agree with the Sale bashing. Yes, I do not like the way she behaved herself at times, but she believed that she rightly won (which IMO is the equivalent of Slutskaya believing that she should've won Worlds 2001- her ability had been overstated, and when she's given a more appropriate placement, a shocked reaction ensues), and she was within her rights. And so was Pelletier (why do people focus their negativity on Sale? If they're going to get nasty, why not go for the pair, rather than just her?). Seriously, if we don't like the way B&S were bashed by the media and by fans, then we shouldn't do the same to Sale.

BTW, I'm really surprised in all the people here that think that B&S were better that night. Not that I'm complaining, mind you. It's just surprising, because I usually find myself defending B&S's performance to people that think that S&P were oh so clearly better.

Audience response and Sale bashing

As far as the audience response to B&S... pretend there had been no contraversy. Would NA audiences have been as welcoming to them as they are to NA skaters? Who knows. The NA audiences certainly embraced G&G, a previous Russian pairs OGM... who knows?

As it is, B&S share the ice with S&P on a regular basis. They obviously don't blame them for the pall that shadowed their win. Maybe the initial winning experience isn't everything? Tara is the example someone else, but we all know that that while Tara walked on air for days, she also walked with pain...

Regarding the Sale bashing - I totally agree that her stretched out, worn out sweater with the armpit stains should have been replaced before the Olys. In a sport where appearance counts, this factor should have been included. As far as her tears, well, I don't have a problem with her crying. There is a huge emotional rush when you finish a performance that you worked hard for... but what was she saying? Anyone read lips? I had the feeling that she was making accusations of cheating right then... and that doesn't seem right. I wish I knew, though. I did have an extreme distaste for her behavior afterwards. I don't think David behaved quite so badly.

But, S&P have both won me back since then. They put a lot of heart into their post-eligible career and I appreciate that. No stupid wriggle and take your clothes off performances - they are demonstrating their skills. That's quite important.

Linny

I think the two medal awards for the Pairs teams were set up by Speedy to hide the investigation further. He was trying desperately to get the media off his back.

Bottom Line: Some fans saw B&S as the legitimate winners and some saw S&P. That's not unusual in any close event. We live with it.

But the case for the collusion is not settled. If LeGougne was innocent then why didn't Didier stand up for her? If LeGougne was guilty then with whom was the other party to the collusion. Hence the 2medal awards.

Joe

Joesitz said:

Do you feel the same way about Irina being shocked and angry when she loses? Is that showing poor sportsmanship or does she have the right to complain?

Again it's not about sportsmanship. It's about CHEATING

Joe

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S&P's outraged reaction when it was announced that B&S had won happened long before there was any hint of cheating or malfeasance by the judges, and it WAS a display of poor sportsmanship.

Irina at least went offstage and vented her anger away from the K&C, and she was composed on the podium. S&P vented IN the K&C, showed their anger outwardly on the podium and took their outrage to the media BEFORE LeGougne's revelation.

chuckm said:

S&P's outraged reaction when it was announced that B&S had won happened long before there was any hint of cheating or malfeasance by the judges, and it WAS a display of poor sportsmanship.

Irina at least went offstage and vented her anger away from the K&C, and she was composed on the podium. S&P vented IN the K&C, showed their anger outwardly on the podium and took their outrage to the media BEFORE LeGougne's revelation.

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Yes. Every thing is timing. Poor sportsmanship indeed.

Now you looked back you can't really rule out the collusion of conspiracy by NA medias and officials, just that they did it more 'artistry'.

Before Olympics even started all NA medias hyped on "Can a NA pairs break xxxx year pairs dominate in this Olympics". They wanted S/P won and almost crowned them before the game even started. And right before S/P steped on ice for their LP, scott was so excited (disgusting) "Look at her face, she know they can do it, they can do it". Then when they diddn't win he and her femal collegus went right ahead declear a 'scandal' before any revealation of collusion (French judge.... then the NA official bully....French judge addmitt "pressure" .....) in public.

It almost like NA media and official want a 'scandal' when S/A diddn't win. If there was non, they'd help brewing one. My point is if scott and co. got the 'wind' (that there might be collusion between French judge and ...) before hand that made him declare 'scandal' right after S/P skated, where did he got the wind? .... must from a NA officials.... then why this NA official diddn't blow the wistle before? .... there were a lot questions could be asked against NA officials and media as well.

All in all I agree what Soogar said:
"
For years there have been fixes in this sport and it was common knowledge... people just dealt with it and somehow the RIGHT person was always crowned champion. Now all of a sudden everyone (the media and all) feel that they are qualified to be a judge. I'm sorry , but most folks in the media don't even know how to determine the quality of the elements or even bother trying. Who are they to write articles on bad judging and wuz robbing when they don't even take the time to learn the sport?
"

I am a big Jamie Sale fan. Like Linny, I especially think her career has taken off as a professional. She could be the next Kurt Browning ( = Canadian ham on ice).

But what I really am is a Lori Nichol fan. In the Salt Lake City post mortems a lot of attention was focused on the choreography. Sale and Pelletier were criticized for presenting a more simply constructed program. But I thought that Berezhnaya and Sikharudlize did not especially distinguish themselves in that category, either. It seemed like their program was a fairly generic, albeit suitably elegant, Gordeeva/Grinkov sort of thing, to an old warhouse, Thais.

I wish the roles had been reversed, with Jamie and David doing Orchid and Elena and Anton doing their all-time masterpiece, Charlie Chaplin.

Lori Nichol created some of her strongest programs for Sale and Pelletier. She was especially in her element with the short programs, many of which had a humorous undercurrent. Come Rain or Come Shine and Tango were both super. (Lori’s short programs for Michelle Kwan were outstanding, too -- as a body of work, maybe better that the LPs -- sometimes the necessity of working in as many highlight elements as possible can detract from the choreography.)

Love Story was the program that put this pair on the map. I was completely spellbound the first time I saw it, at Skate America. Tristan and Isolde was even more compelling (why doesn’t everyone use Wagner?)

But in the 2001-2002 season, Orchid seemed to push the team out of their comfort zone. It seemed like they never really mastered the piece. In the Grand Prix final they had to do two LPs, so they did Orchid and Love Story. Their performance of Orchid was only so-so, and their Love Story was great. Plus, Love Story was very well received by the North American audience. So that pushed them to do Love Story instead of the more richly constructed Orchid at Salt lake City.

OT -- Kwanford Wife, you will be cheered to know that in the last couple of years Ferndale, along with Huntington Woods, has suddenly become hip! It's the new happening place.

Mathman

Mathman said:

I wish the roles had been reversed, with Jamie and David doing Orchid and Elena and Anton doing their all-time masterpiece, Charlie Chaplin.

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You see, they had bad reviews of Chaplin from the judges. They didn't like the character stuff for Elena and Anton, and they thought that the stops were too numerous (I think there were 2, originally) and took away from the difficulty of the piece. That's the review Moskvina kept getting, so she made some changes to it, but they still decided to do Thais at the Olys. Elena and Anton did not want to do a new program. They liked City Lights better.

I personally feel that they were slammed for City Lights for no reason. I thought that program should've won Worlds in Vancouver in '01 (as I felt about Valse Triste at the GPF the previous season). But the judges were telling them to go back to what they were known for: speed, power, elegance, and a classical style. So if they wanted to win, they felt they had no choice but to go with Meditation.

OTOH, S&P could not completely master the complicated choreography of Orchid, apparently. I think it was a mistake to ditch it for the (relatively) simple Love Story. They were better than that program skills-wise. But City Lights beat it at the GPF, so I guess they didn't feel they had much of a choice either.

I think S&P were frankly lucky in many ways. They mostly skated in North America the last two seasons before the Olys (maybe once outside? I'm not sure. I know that they didn't have to cross the ocean once during the Olympic season). They always had home turf advantage. The media were hyping them to no end, and they were the beneficiaries of what I consider to be poor and west-bloc judging on a few ocassions.

mzheng said:

Before Olympics even started all NA medias hyped on "Can a NA pairs break xxxx year pairs dominate in this Olympics". They wanted S/P won and almost crowned them before the game even started. And right before S/P steped on ice for their LP, scott was so excited (disgusting) "Look at her face, she know they can do it, they can do it".

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My mother, who is not a diehard FS fan and doesn't pay much attention to it, called me to tell me: "wow, they really want to dethrone the Russians, don't they? It's all about the Canadian pair!"

I thought that S&P doing "Love Story" at SLC was a mistake. It was a relatively simple program, and they'd been doing it for years. There is no way the judges would have believed that S&P were challenging themselves with that piece. I always wondered why they hadn't done "Tristan", the only program of theirs that I really liked.

The Russians' program was more complex and more difficult, and except for a very small mistake, they performed it exquisitely. I wasn't surprised at all that B&S won, and thought it was the right call.

Doing it for years

S&P had been doing Love Story POORLY for years. At the Olys, Jaime finally got the SbS jumps.
Linny

OK, this really has nothing to do with suspect judging, I just wanted to say that I've always felt that S&P did in fact master their Orchid long .....I never got the feeling that the program was so complex and above their abilities at the time that they couldn't pull it off. They only performed it four times (right?) - SA, SC, GP finals, and Nationals. The GP performace was shaky in places, their Nationals performance may be called an unmitigated disaster, their SA version was fine, but their SC Orchid was the most exuberant. They were incredibly free and alive in that performance. So, yes, out of the four performances, only two may be deemed relatively mistake-free, but even with the mistake-laden Nationals version, the mistakes are mistakes but the rest of the performance stands up to scrutiny. I always thought they did a beautiful job of interpreting Nichol's choreography and never got the impression that this program was somehow a bit of a stretch, like Nichol's vision exceeded their abilities. It is definitely a challenging program but they rose to the challenge, in my opinion.

Thanks for that point of view, Saint-Exupery.

We seem to be having at least three different discussions going on at the same time on this thread. I would like to ask everybody's opinion about this: besides Anton's little break on the double Axel, did anyone else think that on both of the throw jumps, Elena's landings were not totally 100% secure?

Mathman

chuckm said:

I thought that S&P doing "Love Story" at SLC was a mistake. It was a relatively simple program, and they'd been doing it for years. There is no way the judges would have believed that S&P were challenging themselves with that piece. I always wondered why they hadn't done "Tristan", the only program of theirs that I really liked.

The Russians' program was more complex and more difficult, and except for a very small mistake, they performed it exquisitely. I wasn't surprised at all that B&S won, and thought it was the right call.

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At first I was shocked they gave it to B & S but I also think they had the more complex program. Now I can see why they won. It could have gone either way and I would have understood.