2002 Olympic Ladies Scores | Golden Skate

2002 Olympic Ladies Scores

aviva_dawn

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 13, 2004
I watched both Sarah Hughes and Irina Slutskaya's Olympic LP's to see what the marks were. Since in the NBC broadcast, the screen went immediately from Irina's scores to Sarah and Robin Wagner breaking down in tears of joy.
I couldn't figure out what the ordinals were.....
This is what I gathered from what I saw.
Sarah won the first place votes of the German, Italian, Canadian and USA judges ( the Finnish judge had Irina and Sarah virtually tied with a 5.7/5.8 and 5.8/5.7, and I don't remember what the tiebreaker was in that competition.) Irina had the judges from Slovakia, Russia, Denmark, Belarus.

What were the other scores ( and ordinals) for the other ladies of the top 4 ( MK and Sasha) because I'm curious how this all broke down on paper.


Thank you
 

aviva_dawn

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 13, 2004
Thanks for the link.
I notice that the ordinals were all over the place!
There are so many different ways that it all could have gone!
 

aviva_dawn

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 13, 2004
I noticed that too.....but if you look at your tapes from the competitions, you'll find out what countries they were from.....
The judges in that comp were in order:
Germany
Russia
Slovak Republic
Denmark
Italy
Belarus
Finland
Canada
USA

The 5-4 split went down on West/East lines. One of the judges had Sasha in second ( The Russian one)
two had Sarah in fourth , with Irina in first. MK had 5 2nd place ordinals to Sarah's 5 1st place ordinals.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
aviva_dawn said:
MK had 5 2nd place ordinals to Sarah's 5 1st place ordinals.
But actually Sarah had little to do with it. Under OBO judging, what the gold medal came down to was the fact that Irina had 6 first and second place votes (including a second from the U.S. judge), to Michelle's five. Change Inman's third place for Michelle to second and Michelle wins the gold medal.

BTW, under CoP scoring Irina surely would have won. The eastern bloc judges who put Sarah fourth, had they given her correspondingly low component scores, would have brought the average down below Irina's.

Mathman
 
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aviva_dawn

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 13, 2004
Mathman:

That's what it was???? I didn't and still don't understand the 6.0 system, especially when it comes to ordinals.....
Thanks for clarifying Mathman.

If the above had happened, would it have been MK, Irina, Sarah or MK, Irina, Sasha?

Thank you
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
In the free skate, Sarah, Michelle, Irina, Sasha.

Overall, Michelle, Sarah, Irina, Sasha.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
The Russian judge, Tatiana Danilenko, was one of two judges who placed Sarah 4th in the FS (the other was Slovak). Danilenko placed Sarah TENTH in the SP.

Danilenko also placed Fumie Suguri 13th in the SP (Fumie was 7th) and 8th in the FS (Fumie was 5th).

Had the competition been scored under CoP, Sarah would have been WAY lower than 4th place in the SP. Maria Butyrskaya would likely have been in 3rd after the SP and might have edged Sarah for bronze.
 
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Sylvia

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Mathman said:
But actually Sarah had little to do with it. Under OBO judging, what the gold medal came down to was the fact that Irina had 6 first and second place votes (including a second from the U.S. judge), to Michelle's five. Change Inman's third place for Michelle to second and Michelle wins the gold medal.

NO, no, that would have happened only under the old majority ordinal accounting system (what the U.S. still uses domestically) -- the New York Times article that mentioned this got it wrong. Under the OBO accounting system (what was in effect at the SLC Olympics), Kwan would have needed *at least 2 judges* to have placed her ahead of Slutskaya -- I don't have the exact details memorized, but will attempt to find the detailed, explanatory post from the Skatefans mailing list archives.
 

Sylvia

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Here's the link to the detailed explanatory post by a Canadian accountant on Skatefans (the quoted excerpts were from the New York Times article by Selena Roberts published on 2/23/02):
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/SkateFans/message/82554

To summarize:
"In order for Kwan to have placed ahead of Slutskaya she needed another win [a term used in OBO] which means that she needed 2 more jifs [="judges in favor"] against Slutskaya or 2 more jifs against Hughes since one needs 5 jifs for a win---this guy is wrong. They all seem to be looking at this like we're still using majority for place."

I actually sent this summary in to the New York Times, hoping they would print a correction, but, alas, never heard anything back from them.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Sylvia, you mean I have been carrying a grudge against Mr. Inman all this time for nothing? A thousand apologies, Judge Joe!

Thanks for clearing that up. I don't know why, but I feel so much better. (Michelle lost decisively, rather than by a whisker. I don't know why that comforts me, but it does.)

MZheng, about the 1998 Olympics, I believe the U.S. judge was the same person as in 2002. Far from being biased against Michelle, he was regarded as a big admirer of her skating. According to Christine Brennan's book, Mr. Inman had previously thought that it would never be possible to award a 6.0 in any competition, because that meant perfection. No performance, however excellent, is perfect.

But when he judged U.S. Nationals in Philadelphia, and Michelle did Lyra Angelica, the perfromance brought tears to his eyes and he gave out the first (and as far as I know, the only) 6.0 of his judging career.

Mr. Inman is a professional musician. As a figure skating judge he pays especial attention to choreography and musical interpretation.

Mathman
 

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Exactly, Mathman.............I feel the same way. If Michelle or Irina had won with their less than perfect skates, the whole house would have come down and marred their performances and the ladies' competition. If there hadn't already been such an upset during the pair's final, a Michelle or Irina win might have been forgiven. Sarah skated just right that night. She did her "thing" and the judges did theirs.................. :agree: 42
 
S

SkateFan4Life

Guest
Going into the Salt Lake long program, Michelle Kwan was in first place, Irina Slutskaya in second place, Sasha Cohen in third place, and Sarah Hughes was in fourth place.

By the judging system of 2002, Sarah Hughes could win the gold medal ONLY if she won the long program and Michelle Kwan finished no higher than third in the long program. And, amazingly, that's exactly what happened. Talk about drama on the ice.

Sarah skated the long program of her life, with three clean triple/triple combos, good speed, artistry, and coverage on the ice. She was clearly inspired, and she skated flat out. Her marks were good - 5.7s and 5.8s - but the judges clearly left room for Kwan, Slutskaya, and Cohen.

Sasha Cohen skated a beautiful long program to "Carmen", but she fell on her planned triple lutz/triple toe combination. Since she had no 3/3 combos, her technical marks were lowers than Hughes, and she was ranked behind Hughes.

Michelle Kwan skated a tentative long program by watering down her planned
triple toe/triple toe to a triple toe/double toe. She then slipped and fell on her triple flip and appeared to be running out of steam towards the end of her program. The judges marked her behind Hughes but ahead of Cohen.

Irina Slutskaya skated a dramatic but flawed program to "Tosca" with a very rocky, forward landing on her triple flip and one or two double-footed landings. She, too, did not land a 3/3/combination. However, several of the European judges gave her 5.9s for technical merit (unbelievable, as she simply did not deserve 5.9 IMHO), and somewhat lower marks for presentation.

It was a 5/4 split - very, very, close, but Sarah Hughes won the long program and the Olympic gold medal. I get goosebumps every time I play my videotape of that competition. It was an upset of Olympian proportions, without a doubt.
 

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
A few people on FSU and myself personally feel that Joe Inman sacrificed MK for an American victory. While I'm not an MK fan, I thought it was a shame that Irina beat MK with that kind of performance and it was so obvious and embarassing that Irina actually got 4 first place votes for that crappy free skate (all former Soviet republics). Sarah's skate did not give me goosebumps at all. It was just so lacking and juniorish. Yes she stood up the jumps, but MK would have been a great Olympic gold medalist. She was neat and polished while Sarah was gawky. I think the OGM should be the best skating has to offer and Sarah was/is so NOT the best skating had to offer.
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
chuckm said:
Had the competition been scored under CoP, Sarah would have been WAY lower than 4th place in the SP. Maria Butyrskaya would likely have been in 3rd after the SP and might have edged Sarah for bronze.
Not necessarily, since Danilenko's scores would have likely been thrown out as the lowest.
 
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