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Thread: Olympic Pairs -2002

  1. #16
    Resident Kristi Fan purplecat's Avatar
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    If I were a judge I would have judged S&P first, however, I could see the rationale behind putting B&S first. So even though I would've had S&P first, I wasn't outraged that B&S won initially. I thought it was a close contest.

  2. #17
    Custom Title boggartlaura's Avatar
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    I'm the only person alive who'd have S/P first in the SP and B/S first in hte LP/

  3. #18
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    I would've gone with B&S on this one. I think it could've gone either way, and it comes down to preference: a simple program vs. a complex and original one. One pair has better skating skills and elements, while the other pair perfomed more cleanly (but not perfectly either). I think B&S were tight and didn't perform that program up to their standard. But IMO, S&P are two (slight) mistakes below B&S, meaning that B&S could make a couple of little mistakes and I would've still put them first, specially with S&P skating Love Story.

    I'm the only person alive who'd have S/P first in the SP and B/S first in hte LP/
    Wow. I think you might be right! I hadn't heard that take on it before. Could I ask you why? I'm just curious, that's all.

    FWIW, I'd have B&S first in the SP also.
    Last edited by Jimena; 02-11-2005 at 02:42 PM.

  4. #19
    Custom Title ceg15's Avatar
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    I have a biast opinion here because they are my all-time favorite skaters and I'm canadian and all that BUT IMO S/P had a clean, enchanting, charming, perfect skate that night. I was praying that they would take Love Story to the Olympics and they amde a good decision doing that.

    To this day, I have to say that Love Story is my all-time favorite skating program. The way they skate to that music with eachother it's amazing, breath-taking, brilliant. There was no doubt, no doubt at all that S/P should've won, they deserved it. You can't look at the big picture-look at the real picture, what went on that night, who did what. It's not based on potential.

    S/P clearly had the audience engrossed in their program, it was silent, it was like incredibly unbeliveable that skate. Was it not obvious that the russians made a mistake. It does not matter how big or small the mistake was, it was a mistake, and a mistake is a mistake. It ahs to be judged on the performances that were skated on that night, who put it out there? I give both of the team props for both going out there and putting out great skates, especially what happenned on the warmup too.

    I was only about 11 or 12 when those 2002 olympics were but I went to bed crying that night and the next day and the next. I was like the hugest fan of S/P and to this day I still am. To award S/P the gold medal was the fiar thing to do, definitely. I also think that I/Z deserved better than 5th.

    This is just my opinion.

  5. #20
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    When I first watched SLC in 2002, I was a VERY casual skating fan. I only occassionally watched skating during the Olympics and ocassionally nationals.
    I had never even heard of B&S or S&P, or seen any of their programs.

    I thought S&P did a good job, but I liked B&S better. My opinion wasn't based on any skatinq qualities, just personal opinion. But from the commentary, it sounded as if S&P deserved to win the gold.


    The so called "scandal" actually made me more interested in skating. It was because of that, that I went online, to the messageboards. That of course sparked a 3 year "obsession" with all aspects of skating. And in the course of watching videos, reading books and learning more and more about skating; I change my perspective. I now think that B&S were the only couple that should have won the Olympic Gold Medals. On repeated watching of it, I have gained more appreciation for Medi. It a stunning piece of choreography and goregous program. Perhaps, one of the greatest programs of all time. It is too bad that B&S didn't skate their ultimate potential in SLC, but even with that, I still think that they deserve to be put over S&P

  6. #21
    Technical
    Sbs 3 toes –S&P’s are out of unison because David jumps bigger than Jamie and therefore causes the timing problem. B&S had better unison, jumped bigger, held their edges, and have perfect extension. B&S get equal height on their jumps.Winner: B&S

    SBS 2 axel/2 toe sequence – S&P are out of unison & David’s toe digs in. Anton had the turn out on the landing, but the unison, posture, and extension on the second jump is excellent. Winner: S&P

    Throw 3 salchow – Jamie lands forward. Elena’s takeoff isn’t clean and she also lands forward. Winner: S&P

    Throw 3 loop – again, Jamie lands a little forward. Elena’s landing doesn’t look like it was *easy* but there is no real flaw. B&S’s throws dwarf S&P’s throws, Elena has a better landing position, hold the edges longer, Anton keeps moving through the throw, and Anton’s position is better than David’s. Winner: B&S

    Death spiral – Elena doesn’t get enough arch in her back. I never really understood her problem with it as her back is probably the most flexible I’ve seen. Winner: S&P

    Lifts – B&S had better positions and positions on the dismounts. S&P had more difficult lifts and *I think* cover more ice, but there was a clear illegal lift (hand to thigh). But since I’m pretty sure deductions for illegal moves are taken off the program as a whole and I seriously doubt the judges actually took the required deduction, this one goes to S&P. Winner: S&P

    Footwork – S&P’s footwork is very simplistic. For a footwork sequence, there really isn’t much footwork there. B&S’s footwork isn’t all that intricate either, but they have more actual bladework and better unison. Winner: B&S

    Twist – B&S has a 2 foot landing + a bad catch. S&P has a 2 foot landing + not caught in the air. While B&S’s mistake was more glaring, these are considered equally bad mistakes. Under COP, they would BOTH get a -3 GOE. B&S had a superior split and extension though S&P looked like they had more control.

    Sbs spins – David travels significantly, though they have a more difficult entry. B&S have better unison, centering, form. Winner: B&S

    Pair spins – I don’t see any clear winner here. I guess I’ll give the edge to S&P because I think they did more revolutions, though I’m not sure.

    Spirals – B&S have better positions, more speed, and do them closer together. Winner:B&S

    Presentation
    Speed & ice coverage – I wasn’t there, but I think we can trust Vash. Plus, B&S have always been better in these areas, even when they’re not going full out. Winner: B&S

    Skating skills (edge quality and difficulty of turns) - B&S have the deepest edges in the competition. Their program contained much more intricate blade work. Winner: B&S

    Originality – Meditation was unique in the way it utilizes the potential created by having 2 bodies create shapes. The choreography intertwined. I realize this isn’t the first time something like this was done, but it’s still unusual. Also, they have some individual moves that only they did at the time. winner: B&S

    Transitions: most of S&P’s between elements skating consists of plain stroking, two foot skating, posing, upper body movements, and facial expressions. B&S had moves in the fields between elements, had difficult entries into the elements, more turns and steps, and continuous movement from beginning to end. Winner: B&S

    Choreography: They both had cohesive programs, but B&S had a lot more actual content. Winner: B&S

    Unison: it used to be that this was supposed to be the most important in pairs. I feel like that attitude has shifted slightly. B&S have better matching lines, posture, technique, and timing. Winner: B&S

    Interpretation/Expression: Most of S&P’s expression came from the face. Without the facial expressions, you’d have little idea of what the program was about. B&S didn’t have the facial expressions, but they expressed the music through body movement and overall choreography. The latter is much more valued in scoring. Winner: B&S

    Line & posture: B&S always are excellent in these areas. S&P have mediocre posture. They would be fine if they were singles skaters, but the biggest problem with their posture is that they don’t match. Their line is okay, but not spectacular. Winner: B&S

    Sureness (execution): Even with some minor flaws, S&P looked steady throughout. B&S looked like they had to think through their program. Winner: S&P

    Final score
    S&P: 5.8/5.8
    B&S:5.7/5.9

    Someone let me know if there’s some presentation description I forgot, though considering that I only have 1/8 going to S&P, I doubt anything I missed would tip the judgment.

    I’m actually surprised by my overall assessment because before doing this, I thought it was closer. Now that I have, it’s clear to me that B&S won. Before, I thought B&S slightly edged out S&P, but now I think they obviously won. Under COP, B&S would have won comfortably.
    Last edited by tazban01; 02-11-2005 at 05:32 PM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    You and several other posters here seem to be influenced by the comments of Scott and Sandra. I drew my own conclusions since I was watching it live, without a biased commentary.
    And you didn't read my comment in the other thread either. I hate Thais and ended up watching the rest of the competition in mute. I was still shocked that B/S won and S/P came in second. At that point, I went back and watched the rest with the volume on and heard the over-the-top commentary. BTW, I don't like listening to Scott Hamilton either. Between the two, the tv had to be on mute.

    I still think S/P won. And no, that wasn't the commentary speaking.

  8. #23
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    I meant to also touch on I/Z... I thought they were held down and I have never really understood why. Granted I can't go back and watch the competition as I had a crappy VCR that though the "record" command meant "eat the tape" so I never got to record the stuff... I'm still upset about it, as you can tell LOL

    I'm not a big fan of I/Z. I like John Zimmerman's personality, but their programs don't do much for me. That being said they had something that night.


    there were some decisions by the judges through the whole competition that made me go "huh?" but for some reason the only judging weirdness the most subjective one of the whole bunch... :sheesh:

  9. #24
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    Thanks Tazban for taking time to do the analysis. And I'm not just saying that because I agree with your final results.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle
    I meant to also touch on I/Z... I thought they were held down and I have never really understood why. Granted I can't go back and watch the competition as I had a crappy VCR that though the "record" command meant "eat the tape" so I never got to record the stuff... I'm still upset about it, as you can tell LOL

    I'm not a big fan of I/Z. I like John Zimmerman's personality, but their programs don't do much for me. That being said they had something that night.


    there were some decisions by the judges through the whole competition that made me go "huh?" but for some reason the only judging weirdness the most subjective one of the whole bunch... :sheesh:
    I&Z had a fall in the SP. They were too low to medal anyway.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazban01
    Technical
    Sbs 3 toes –S&P’s are out of unison because David jumps bigger than Jamie and therefore causes the timing problem. B&S had better unison, jumped bigger, held their edges, and have perfect extension. B&S get equal height on their jumps.Winner: B&S

    SBS 2 axel/2 toe sequence – S&P are out of unison & David’s toe digs in. Anton had the turn out on the landing, but the unison, posture, and extension on the second jump is excellent. Winner: S&P

    Throw 3 salchow – Jamie lands forward. Elena’s takeoff isn’t clean and she also lands forward. Winner: S&P

    Throw 3 loop – again, Jamie lands a little forward. Elena’s landing doesn’t look like it was *easy* but there is no real flaw. B&S’s throws dwarf S&P’s throws, Elena has a better landing position, hold the edges longer, Anton keeps moving through the throw, and Anton’s position is better than David’s. Winner: B&S

    Death spiral – Elena doesn’t get enough arch in her back. I never really understood her problem with it as her back is probably the most flexible I’ve seen. Winner: S&P

    Lifts – B&S had better positions and positions on the dismounts. S&P had more difficult lifts and *I think* cover more ice, but there was a clear illegal lift (hand to thigh). But since I’m pretty sure deductions for illegal moves are taken off the program as a whole and I seriously doubt the judges actually took the required deduction, this one goes to S&P. Winner: S&P

    Footwork – S&P’s footwork is very simplistic. For a footwork sequence, there really isn’t much footwork there. B&S’s footwork isn’t all that intricate either, but they have more actual bladework and better unison. Winner: B&S

    Twist – B&S has a 2 foot landing + a bad catch. S&P has a 2 foot landing + not caught in the air. While B&S’s mistake was more glaring, these are considered equally bad mistakes. Under COP, they would BOTH get a -3 GOE. B&S had a superior split and extension though S&P looked like they had more control.

    Sbs spins – David travels significantly, though they have a more difficult entry. B&S have better unison, centering, form. Winner: B&S

    Pair spins – I don’t see any clear winner here. I guess I’ll give the edge to S&P because I think they did more revolutions, though I’m not sure.

    Spirals – B&S have better positions, more speed, and do them closer together. Winner:B&S

    Presentation
    Speed & ice coverage – I wasn’t there, but I think we can trust Vash. Plus, B&S have always been better in these areas, even when they’re not going full out. Winner: B&S

    Skating skills (edge quality and difficulty of turns) - B&S have the deepest edges in the competition. Their program contained much more intricate blade work. Winner: B&S

    Originality – Meditation was unique in the way it utilizes the potential created by having 2 bodies create shapes. The choreography intertwined. I realize this isn’t the first time something like this was done, but it’s still unusual. Also, they have some individual moves that only they did at the time. winner: B&S

    Transitions: most of S&P’s between elements skating consists of plain stroking, two foot skating, posing, upper body movements, and facial expressions. B&S had moves in the fields between elements, had difficult entries into the elements, more turns and steps, and continuous movement from beginning to end. Winner: B&S

    Choreography: They both had cohesive programs, but B&S had a lot more actual content. Winner: B&S

    Unison: it used to be that this was supposed to be the most important in pairs. I feel like that attitude has shifted slightly. B&S have better matching lines, posture, technique, and timing. Winner: B&S

    Interpretation/Expression: Most of S&P’s expression came from the face. Without the facial expressions, you’d have little idea of what the program was about. B&S didn’t have the facial expressions, but they expressed the music through body movement and overall choreography. The latter is much more valued in scoring. Winner: B&S

    Line & posture: B&S always are excellent in these areas. S&P have mediocre posture. They would be fine if they were singles skaters, but the biggest problem with their posture is that they don’t match. Their line is okay, but not spectacular. Winner: B&S

    Sureness (execution): Even with some minor flaws, S&P looked steady throughout. B&S looked like they had to think through their program. Winner: S&P

    Final score
    S&P: 5.8/5.8
    B&S:5.7/5.9

    Someone let me know if there’s some presentation description I forgot, though considering that I only have 1/8 going to S&P, I doubt anything I missed would tip the judgment.

    I’m actually surprised by my overall assessment because before doing this, I thought it was closer. Now that I have, it’s clear to me that B&S won. Before, I thought B&S slightly edged out S&P, but now I think they obviously won. Under COP, B&S would have won comfortably.
    Last edited by bleuchick; 02-11-2005 at 08:53 PM.

  12. #27
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    bleuchick, you sure are succinct in your reactions! Um....I don't really know what to say about that rather arbitrary analysis....these two pairs are undoubtedly talented in their own ways, and like many have said before, it is precisely because they exhibit such virtuosity in two very different styles that they continue to fuel these 'who is the better team' debates. Based on a performance that happened three years ago. I often get the impression that to side with one team or the other is not a matter of mere preference in skating style....no, it's somehow intimately bound with one's sense of identity or something, judging by the amount of vitriol that I've come across whenever there's a S&P vs. B&S thread, with most of the spite aimed at S&P, it seems to me.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Exupery
    bleuchick, you sure are succinct in your reactions! Um....I don't really know what to say about that rather arbitrary analysis....these two pairs are undoubtedly talented in their own ways, and like many have said before, it is precisely because they exhibit such virtuosity in two very different styles that they continue to fuel these 'who is the better team' debates. Based on a performance that happened three years ago. I often get the impression that to side with one team or the other is not a matter of mere preference in skating style....no, it's somehow intimately bound with one's sense of identity or something, judging by the amount of vitriol that I've come across whenever there's a S&P vs. B&S thread, with most of the spite aimed at S&P, it seems to me.
    What made the anaylsis "arbitary", because it had B&S on top?
    How would you have analyze SLC?
    At least in my case, prefering B&S over S&P, has nothing to do with some deep sense of "identity" I just like B&S more. And IMO there has been spite aimed at both couples.

  14. #29
    Rinkside
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    Perhaps arbitrary wasn't the best word to use....as simply an expression of preference, that's fine. And I wasn't aiming at anyone in particular when I said that these two couples seem to set off such violent reactions sometimes. Just a personal observation....

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by bleuchick
    yes, we would hate to actually take into account the actual guidelines and logic when deciding winners. "I like them better" is a much better argument.

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