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Thread: 6.0 tarnished at U.S. Nationals

  1. #1
    Custom Title brad640's Avatar
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    6.0 tarnished at U.S. Nationals

    Now that US nationals are over it seems that the old 6.0 system is officially dead. Rather than retire the old system with dignity, US judges chose to flush it down the toilet, awarding numerous 6.0’s to flawed programs. Where 6 was once the mark of an exceptional program to be remembered through the ages, now it apparently applies to lackluster performances by treasured veterans, mediocre performances by rising stars, or anything else the judges sort of liked. I do not begrudge those skaters who received 6.0’s, but I think it was obvious that no one deserved a 6.0 this year when compared to the truly great performances that received 6.0’s in the history of nationals (such as Rudy in 96 and Michelle in 98). Johnny Weir said in his journal that he did not feel he deserved the 6.0’s he received in the short and long programs. You can read that here:

    http://www.figureskatersonline.com/j...r/journal.html

    I imagine that the other skaters who received these marks feel the same way he does. Not too long ago, skaters dreamed of earning a perfect score of 6 in recognition of a brief shining moment of perfection and artistic excellence. These marks were rarely given, because perfection is seldom achieved in skating, but this year was different. First, Evan Lysacek received a 6.0 for his bull fighting program that was entertaining and clean but not an artistic landmark. Then Johnny received a 6.0 for one of the worst short programs he has done this year and 5 more for a flat long program with errors throughout. In ladies, Michelle received 3 6.0’s in the short, which was not her best, and 4 more in the long after finishing behind the music. Finally, in ice dance Belbin and Agosto received all 9 6’s for presentation in the free dance. Maybe the judges were thanking them for raising the level of US ice dance. However, all perfect 6.0’s should mean a legendary and historic program like T&D’s Bolero. B&A’s Russian Gypsy Dance was energetic, but it is not something that people will be talking about years from now. Only in pairs were the judges able to restrain themselves. I’m surprised they didn’t award O&L perfect scores for being the first US pairs champion to skate a clean program in many years.

    I think the USFSA will look back on the 2005 nationals as an embarrassment for the rampant over-marking that occurred. I know the rationale is that after the new system is adopted, there will no longer be the opportunity to award excellence, but I don’t think that is the case. Under the CoP, it is conceivable that a skater could receive a perfect 10 in the program component scores for an “outstanding” performance, but for the audience to be able to recognize that a judge awarded a skater a 10, the marks of individual judges would have to be reported. Hopefully the ISU will change the new system so that once-in-a-lifetime performances will continue to be distinguished with the rare mark of perfection.

  2. #2
    Lovin' the Kween ... Now and Forever
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    Brad, I think you're making a little more of this than it really is, IMHO. So what that they handed out some 6.0's that maybe they shouldn't have ... what real harm is done? Anyone who pays attention to such things would probably be an avid skating fan anyway, and they would understand what happened.
    I can't imagine that many people will ever remember much about it. The 6.0's will be gone now and will fade from people's memories as time passes. Now we can wait for all the new records that will develop under COP.

  3. #3
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    I think that years and years ago getting a 6,0 or more 6,0´s got sooo inflated, that it lost all the meaning it earlier had. It just became e.g. something to give to the last skater (or an earlier if there was no real competition coming) if that performance was seen as a winning performance although it lots of times was nothing remarkable.

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    I completely agree with Brad! MK didn't deserve a single one of those 6.0's - rather, she deserved a deduction for finishing after her music! Johnny and B/A skated well, and maybe deserved one or two apiece, but not a string of them across the board. I'm looking forward to next year when the 6.0 is history and skaters get points only when they deserve them!

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    I don't think a lot fans took 6.0 seriously since last year worlds. I hardly take any 6.0 earned in Nationals, any Nationals in any country too seriously. They are all a 'setup' scores for the skaters the federation send to the big worlds.

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    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    Mzheng, that's exactly what I was going to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ditzysk8r
    I completely agree with Brad! MK didn't deserve a single one of those 6.0's - rather, she deserved a deduction for finishing after her music! Johnny and B/A skated well, and maybe deserved one or two apiece, but not a string of them across the board. I'm looking forward to next year when the 6.0 is history and skaters get points only when they deserve them!
    Why should Michelle get a deduction for finishing after her music? She was within the time limit. And we can only hope that under CoP "skaters get points only when they deserve them". Unfortunately, the way the rules are now, if an error is input by the technical specialists on an element level or whether a triple or double, there is no appeal and the incorrect points will stand -- because it is "human error." So sayeth the ISU rules.

    As to taking 6.0's seriously or not -- judges at National competitions have always been much more generous than international judges -- and last year's Worlds "fire sale" on 6.0's was viewed for what it was -- the last time they would have a chance to award them at an ISU championship, so there was no holding back on handing them out for a superior performance (that might have only received a 5.9 in previous years).

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    First of all, please remember that 6.0 is a system in which skaters are marked in comparison to other skaters, and the tech+presentation marks add up to a total which determines the placement (ordinal) for that skater. So under the 6.0 system, a mark in itself doesn't mean anything in particular, and 6.0 does not necessarily mean "perfect".

    The string of 6.0s given to Belbin/Agosto actually make sense. Their closest competitors, Gregory/Petukhov, who finished 12th at Worlds 2004, received these presentation marks:

    5.7 5.8 5.6 5.7 5.7 5.6 5.7 5.7 5.6

    Belbin/Agosto, who were 5th at 2004 Worlds and this year are potential medal contenders, are so much better than G/P that 6.0s in presentation are warranted.

    If you look at the FS presentation marks given to Goebel and Lysacek, you'll see that 3 of Weir's five 6.0s were given because either Goebel or Lysacek had been given 5.9. In the other two cases, the judges must have felt that Weir's presentation was more than .1 better than Goebel's/Lysacek's.

    6.0 6.0 6.0 5.9 5.9 6.0 5.8 5.9 6.0 Weir
    5.7 5.9 5.8 5.6 5.8 5.7 5.8 5.7 5.8 Goebel
    5.9 5.8 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.8 5.9 5.8 5.9 Lysacek

    You can see a similar relationship in the Ladies FS presentation marks:
    5.9 5.9 6.0 5.9 6.0 6.0 6.0 5.9 5.9 Kwan
    5.8 5.9 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.9 5.8 5.8 Cohen
    5.7 5.6 5.4 5.6 5.5 5.7 5.7 5.6 5.4 Meissner
    5.5 5.8 5.5 5.7 5.6 5.7 5.7 5.5 5.6 Kirk

    Hyperbole is possible under National CoP, too. Consider Joannie Rochette's Nationals marks. She received a whopping 123+ for her FS, and PCS scores in the upper 7's and low 8's. Those PCS scores are in their way equivalent to presentation 5.9s and 6.0s. For comparison, in the GP this season, Joannie's PCS scores were in the high 6's/low 7's.
    Last edited by chuckm; 02-15-2005 at 01:47 PM.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Brad - Does anyone really care? I am a Kwaniac and all I ever wanted to see werer the ordinals for MK like 1's across the board. I never took 6.0s seriously. I still don't.

    Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by ditzysk8r
    I completely agree with Brad! MK didn't deserve a single one of those 6.0's - rather, she deserved a deduction for finishing after her music! Johnny and B/A skated well, and maybe deserved one or two apiece, but not a string of them across the board. I'm looking forward to next year when the 6.0 is history and skaters get points only when they deserve them!
    Just because 6.0 is gone doesn't mean skaters won't get rewarded when they don't skate well. You think skaters get points only when they deserve them under CoP? Ha! There's been a raging argument since Euros because Irina Slutskaya had a bad FS with only 3 triples, yet she still got the same high PCS scores she got when she skated well at CoC and CoR.

    Judges are still playing the same games they were playing under 6.0, only now they can do it without threat of exposure.

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    Non of the programs deserve 6.0 but Matt's and Michelle's sp imo Those 6.0s Michelle got for her long should have all been in her short program.

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    Just out of curiosity, why was giving a large number of undeserved 6.0s at Nats a bigger disservice to the idea of 6.0 as perfection than was the large number of 6.0s given at last year's Worlds? Every skater on the podium in pairs, ladies and dance got at least one 6.0. After the event, one of the FS magazines (I forget if it was BOI or IFS) quoted Kwan as joking how "the streaker helped me interpret the music", and I have difficulty equating N & K's "Pink Panther" (9 6.0s) to Torville & Dean. Plushy got 6 6.0s with a fall. IMHO, the skaters will know which of the 6.0s they have earned in their careers were merited and which were not

  13. #13
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    Eh, who really cares?

    I will take the cynicism of the recent dispensing of 6.0's at US Nationals like Pez Candy to reward the skaters for developing to this point under the 6.0 system one step further by asking,

    "If the skaters all know these were rewards and symbolic to help preserve the memory of the 6.0 System, um, ...

    Who cares?"

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    coulda, woulda, shoulda

    :sheesh:
    It seems that we spend ALOT of time rehashing coulda, woulda, shoulda... I understand that we're all bored waiting for Worlds. I understand that its interesting & fun to over analyze things to death... But the 6.0s given at Nationals? Please. When you seriously think about the horrific Nationals we experienced this year, I just can't understand why we'd spend sooo much time grousing about who got a 6.0. The people who deserved a 6.0 was Angela for being strong enough to support her friends and fellow competitors. Timmy for skating through his obvious upset. And the people of Portland for driving through a terrible ice storm to support our skaters. Everything else was just window dressing...

    So the judges gave 6.0s to those you don't think deserved them... So what?

    The placements weren't going to change. The skaters know what they need to work on. It wasn't an embarrasement. It wasn't a scandle. No one got robbed of a medal. It was a perfect ending to the old system. Just take it as that and move on... No one is ever going to be happy with everything. That's life. Don't spend tons of time upset about who got 6.0s for what flawed performance when there was so much bad at the Nationals.

    Just smile and be happy that we actually had a competition this year without a bunch of scoring drama. Isn't that the important thing?

    Sorry for the rant, but I cannot take it when people climb onto soap boxes... (hmm... its ironic I typed that as I climb offa mine... oh well.)

    Kwanford Wife

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    Fan of The Incomparable Sonja Henie Glacierskater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brad640
    http://www.figureskatersonline.com/j...r/journal.html

    Finally, in ice dance Belbin and Agosto received all 9 6’s for presentation in the free dance. Maybe the judges were thanking them for raising the level of US ice dance. However, all perfect 6.0’s should mean a legendary and historic program like T&D’s Bolero. B&A’s Russian Gypsy Dance was energetic, but it is not something that people will be talking about years from now. Only in pairs were the judges able to restrain themselves.
    I agree with everything except this part of your commentary. Of course both of our opinions are subjective. Here's my thoughts: A 6.0 program does not have to stop the world and be talked about years from now. Belbin and Agosto deserved the marks that they got. The U.S. has not had a dance team to really speak of and they are brilliant. And I do think that the gypsy program will be talked about in years to come. They are an amazing talent. They sold that program and deserved the marks.

    I do not feel that the 6.0 marks that skaters receive can or should be compared to any other previous skater's performance. I don't want to see THE BOLERO skated all over again, and I don't think that should be a goal to achieve. I think that 6.0 presents itself in many different and creative ways, and each and every performance needs to be evaluated for its own worth, not compared to anything before it. Otherwise we would be seeng the same boring skating year after year.
    Last edited by Glacierskater; 02-16-2005 at 12:47 AM.

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