6.0 tarnished at U.S. Nationals | Golden Skate

6.0 tarnished at U.S. Nationals

brad640

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Now that US nationals are over it seems that the old 6.0 system is officially dead. Rather than retire the old system with dignity, US judges chose to flush it down the toilet, awarding numerous 6.0’s to flawed programs. Where 6 was once the mark of an exceptional program to be remembered through the ages, now it apparently applies to lackluster performances by treasured veterans, mediocre performances by rising stars, or anything else the judges sort of liked. I do not begrudge those skaters who received 6.0’s, but I think it was obvious that no one deserved a 6.0 this year when compared to the truly great performances that received 6.0’s in the history of nationals (such as Rudy in 96 and Michelle in 98). Johnny Weir said in his journal that he did not feel he deserved the 6.0’s he received in the short and long programs. You can read that here:

http://www.figureskatersonline.com/johnnyweir/journal.html

I imagine that the other skaters who received these marks feel the same way he does. Not too long ago, skaters dreamed of earning a perfect score of 6 in recognition of a brief shining moment of perfection and artistic excellence. These marks were rarely given, because perfection is seldom achieved in skating, but this year was different. First, Evan Lysacek received a 6.0 for his bull fighting program that was entertaining and clean but not an artistic landmark. Then Johnny received a 6.0 for one of the worst short programs he has done this year and 5 more for a flat long program with errors throughout. In ladies, Michelle received 3 6.0’s in the short, which was not her best, and 4 more in the long after finishing behind the music. Finally, in ice dance Belbin and Agosto received all 9 6’s for presentation in the free dance. Maybe the judges were thanking them for raising the level of US ice dance. However, all perfect 6.0’s should mean a legendary and historic program like T&D’s Bolero. B&A’s Russian Gypsy Dance was energetic, but it is not something that people will be talking about years from now. Only in pairs were the judges able to restrain themselves. I’m surprised they didn’t award O&L perfect scores for being the first US pairs champion to skate a clean program in many years.

I think the USFSA will look back on the 2005 nationals as an embarrassment for the rampant over-marking that occurred. I know the rationale is that after the new system is adopted, there will no longer be the opportunity to award excellence, but I don’t think that is the case. Under the CoP, it is conceivable that a skater could receive a perfect 10 in the program component scores for an “outstanding” performance, but for the audience to be able to recognize that a judge awarded a skater a 10, the marks of individual judges would have to be reported. Hopefully the ISU will change the new system so that once-in-a-lifetime performances will continue to be distinguished with the rare mark of perfection.
 

nymkfan51

Medalist
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Brad, I think you're making a little more of this than it really is, IMHO. So what that they handed out some 6.0's that maybe they shouldn't have ... what real harm is done? Anyone who pays attention to such things would probably be an avid skating fan anyway, and they would understand what happened.
I can't imagine that many people will ever remember much about it. The 6.0's will be gone now and will fade from people's memories as time passes. Now we can wait for all the new records that will develop under COP.
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
I think that years and years ago getting a 6,0 or more 6,0´s got sooo inflated, that it lost all the meaning it earlier had. It just became e.g. something to give to the last skater (or an earlier if there was no real competition coming) if that performance was seen as a winning performance although it lots of times was nothing remarkable.
 

ditzysk8r

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 15, 2005
I completely agree with Brad! MK didn't deserve a single one of those 6.0's - rather, she deserved a deduction for finishing after her music! Johnny and B/A skated well, and maybe deserved one or two apiece, but not a string of them across the board. I'm looking forward to next year when the 6.0 is history and skaters get points only when they deserve them! :p
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
I don't think a lot fans took 6.0 seriously since last year worlds. I hardly take any 6.0 earned in Nationals, any Nationals in any country too seriously. They are all a 'setup' scores for the skaters the federation send to the big worlds.
 

skatingfan5

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
ditzysk8r said:
I completely agree with Brad! MK didn't deserve a single one of those 6.0's - rather, she deserved a deduction for finishing after her music! Johnny and B/A skated well, and maybe deserved one or two apiece, but not a string of them across the board. I'm looking forward to next year when the 6.0 is history and skaters get points only when they deserve them! :p
Why should Michelle get a deduction for finishing after her music? She was within the time limit. And we can only hope that under CoP "skaters get points only when they deserve them". Unfortunately, the way the rules are now, if an error is input by the technical specialists on an element level or whether a triple or double, there is no appeal and the incorrect points will stand -- because it is "human error." So sayeth the ISU rules.

As to taking 6.0's seriously or not -- judges at National competitions have always been much more generous than international judges -- and last year's Worlds "fire sale" on 6.0's was viewed for what it was -- the last time they would have a chance to award them at an ISU championship, so there was no holding back on handing them out for a superior performance (that might have only received a 5.9 in previous years).
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
First of all, please remember that 6.0 is a system in which skaters are marked in comparison to other skaters, and the tech+presentation marks add up to a total which determines the placement (ordinal) for that skater. So under the 6.0 system, a mark in itself doesn't mean anything in particular, and 6.0 does not necessarily mean "perfect".

The string of 6.0s given to Belbin/Agosto actually make sense. Their closest competitors, Gregory/Petukhov, who finished 12th at Worlds 2004, received these presentation marks:

5.7 5.8 5.6 5.7 5.7 5.6 5.7 5.7 5.6

Belbin/Agosto, who were 5th at 2004 Worlds and this year are potential medal contenders, are so much better than G/P that 6.0s in presentation are warranted.

If you look at the FS presentation marks given to Goebel and Lysacek, you'll see that 3 of Weir's five 6.0s were given because either Goebel or Lysacek had been given 5.9. In the other two cases, the judges must have felt that Weir's presentation was more than .1 better than Goebel's/Lysacek's.

6.0 6.0 6.0 5.9 5.9 6.0 5.8 5.9 6.0 Weir
5.7 5.9 5.8 5.6 5.8 5.7 5.8 5.7 5.8 Goebel
5.9 5.8 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.8 5.9 5.8 5.9 Lysacek

You can see a similar relationship in the Ladies FS presentation marks:
5.9 5.9 6.0 5.9 6.0 6.0 6.0 5.9 5.9 Kwan
5.8 5.9 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.9 5.8 5.8 Cohen
5.7 5.6 5.4 5.6 5.5 5.7 5.7 5.6 5.4 Meissner
5.5 5.8 5.5 5.7 5.6 5.7 5.7 5.5 5.6 Kirk

Hyperbole is possible under National CoP, too. Consider Joannie Rochette's Nationals marks. She received a whopping 123+ for her FS, and PCS scores in the upper 7's and low 8's. Those PCS scores are in their way equivalent to presentation 5.9s and 6.0s. For comparison, in the GP this season, Joannie's PCS scores were in the high 6's/low 7's.
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Brad - Does anyone really care? I am a Kwaniac and all I ever wanted to see werer the ordinals for MK like 1's across the board. I never took 6.0s seriously. I still don't.

Joe
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
ditzysk8r said:
I completely agree with Brad! MK didn't deserve a single one of those 6.0's - rather, she deserved a deduction for finishing after her music! Johnny and B/A skated well, and maybe deserved one or two apiece, but not a string of them across the board. I'm looking forward to next year when the 6.0 is history and skaters get points only when they deserve them! :p

Just because 6.0 is gone doesn't mean skaters won't get rewarded when they don't skate well. You think skaters get points only when they deserve them under CoP? Ha! There's been a raging argument since Euros because Irina Slutskaya had a bad FS with only 3 triples, yet she still got the same high PCS scores she got when she skated well at CoC and CoR.

Judges are still playing the same games they were playing under 6.0, only now they can do it without threat of exposure.
 

lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Non of the programs deserve 6.0 but Matt's and Michelle's sp imo Those 6.0s Michelle got for her long should have all been in her short program.
 

attyfan

Custom Title
Medalist
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Just out of curiosity, why was giving a large number of undeserved 6.0s at Nats a bigger disservice to the idea of 6.0 as perfection than was the large number of 6.0s given at last year's Worlds? Every skater on the podium in pairs, ladies and dance got at least one 6.0. After the event, one of the FS magazines (I forget if it was BOI or IFS) quoted Kwan as joking how "the streaker helped me interpret the music", and I have difficulty equating N & K's "Pink Panther" (9 6.0s) to Torville & Dean. Plushy got 6 6.0s with a fall. IMHO, the skaters will know which of the 6.0s they have earned in their careers were merited and which were not
 

ChiSk8Fan

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Eh, who really cares?

I will take the cynicism of the recent dispensing of 6.0's at US Nationals like Pez Candy to reward the skaters for developing to this point under the 6.0 system one step further by asking,

"If the skaters all know these were rewards and symbolic to help preserve the memory of the 6.0 System, um, ...

Who cares?"
 

Kwanford Wife

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
coulda, woulda, shoulda

:sheesh:
It seems that we spend ALOT of time rehashing coulda, woulda, shoulda... I understand that we're all bored waiting for Worlds. I understand that its interesting & fun to over analyze things to death... But the 6.0s given at Nationals? Please. When you seriously think about the horrific Nationals we experienced this year, I just can't understand why we'd spend sooo much time grousing about who got a 6.0. The people who deserved a 6.0 was Angela for being strong enough to support her friends and fellow competitors. Timmy for skating through his obvious upset. And the people of Portland for driving through a terrible ice storm to support our skaters. Everything else was just window dressing...

So the judges gave 6.0s to those you don't think deserved them... So what?

The placements weren't going to change. The skaters know what they need to work on. It wasn't an embarrasement. It wasn't a scandle. No one got robbed of a medal. It was a perfect ending to the old system. Just take it as that and move on... No one is ever going to be happy with everything. That's life. Don't spend tons of time upset about who got 6.0s for what flawed performance when there was so much bad at the Nationals.

Just smile and be happy that we actually had a competition this year without a bunch of scoring drama. Isn't that the important thing?

Sorry for the rant, but I cannot take it when people climb onto soap boxes... (hmm... its ironic I typed that as I climb offa mine... oh well.)

Kwanford Wife
 

Glacierskater

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
brad640 said:
http://www.figureskatersonline.com/johnnyweir/journal.html

Finally, in ice dance Belbin and Agosto received all 9 6’s for presentation in the free dance. Maybe the judges were thanking them for raising the level of US ice dance. However, all perfect 6.0’s should mean a legendary and historic program like T&D’s Bolero. B&A’s Russian Gypsy Dance was energetic, but it is not something that people will be talking about years from now. Only in pairs were the judges able to restrain themselves.

I agree with everything except this part of your commentary. Of course both of our opinions are subjective. Here's my thoughts: A 6.0 program does not have to stop the world and be talked about years from now. Belbin and Agosto deserved the marks that they got. The U.S. has not had a dance team to really speak of and they are brilliant. And I do think that the gypsy program will be talked about in years to come. They are an amazing talent. They sold that program and deserved the marks.

I do not feel that the 6.0 marks that skaters receive can or should be compared to any other previous skater's performance. I don't want to see THE BOLERO skated all over again, and I don't think that should be a goal to achieve. I think that 6.0 presents itself in many different and creative ways, and each and every performance needs to be evaluated for its own worth, not compared to anything before it. Otherwise we would be seeng the same boring skating year after year.
 
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Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Normally I don't compare scores from different competitions but I see what Brad is driving at and I completely agree with him. The 6.0's were given for something rare, because 5.9 were considered excellent marks. The 6.0 was something to strive for. The judges cheapened the 6.0's by giving them away for mediocre performances. The US judges are not alone in it though. The judges at worlds gave them away just as freely. In fact the trend began when it became clear that the 6.0 system would be eventually replaced. Even though the scores are relative, the judges needed to use more restraint in giving 5.9's to some of the earlier skaters, and avoided putting themselves in a position where they had nowhere to go but 6.0. In the pros several years ago we were seeing too many 10.0's. Finally they changed the rules to say 10.0 should not be given unless the program is not just the best in the competition but the skater's best ever. After that I never saw a 10.0. That is going to extreme. All they needed was sticking with the kind of scores we were used to seeing. Some of the 6.0's at the US nationals were down right embarrassing, but so were many 6.0's at worlds last year. Belbin and Agosto skated very well but to give them all 6.0's across the board created the illusion of greatness. I don't believe they are there yet.

Vash
 

Glacierskater

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Vash01 said:
Belbin and Agosto skated very well but to give them all 6.0's across the board created the illusion of greatness. I don't believe they are there yet.

Vash

I agree that it was not ultimate greatness, but compared to the skaters that they were with, and that given performance the marks were more warranted than say certain skaters that keep rehashing the same stuff over and over and can't seem to manage their program time...I was as frustrated as she was because I know that she is capable of better...I'll leave it at that.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
While I understand what Brad is saying, and if I believed that the 6.0 system was not a comparison of skaters' performances, I would go along with his remarks. But the bottom line is the whole system is just a comparison of scores. The score of 6.0 means nothing. It has been given false hype, duh!

When a skater (let's assume Sasha) skates a beautiful program (which she can do) and is awarded 5.9s, and afterwards, another skater (let's assume Irina)skates a technical packed no faults program (which she could), the subjectivity of the sport becomes in the mind of the judges. If they genuinely believed Irina skated a better performance than Sasha they have no alternative but to give Irina scores of 6.0s.

Why is this so difficult to understand? Anything else is just blindly thinking of one's favorites and not the substance of the matter.

Joe
 
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wvgal57

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
The score of 6.0 means nothing. It has been given false hype

That's why Brad's post makes excellent sense. The candy fest at least years Worlds and this years US Nationals was riduculous.

6.0 for perfect program is great but for flawed programs its wrong.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
But in the case of Michelle, to me, just let her stand out there for four minutes -- 6.0!

MM
 
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