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Thread: Pondering Questions re: World Championships and CoP

  1. #1
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Pondering Questions re: World Championships and CoP

    The World Championships in Moscow will soon be a reality. I was wondering what some of the GS members may be looking forward to seeing other than comments about their usual favorites. I think this information may give other members some additional interest in the forthcoming championship regardless of the results.

    Since this is the really first major event that CoP will be used, what will my feelings be about CoP?

    To start off with, I will be looking forward to:

    Comparing the various Technical Scores on individual skaters with their PCS scores so that one can assertain whether a skater or team is considered stronger in one or the other.

    Wondering if any particular skater or skating team was held up.

    Checking on how much variance there is between judges’ scores of individual skaters or teams.

    Given that all the Men skate their best, how much difference in scores will there be between 1st and 2nd place. This will give me some indication of the strength of the competition for the Olys.

    Similarly in Pairs, Dance, and Ladies. This will give me some indication of what the Olys will be like.


    I would appreciate any other comments regarding the forthcoming Worlds which
    will give me more thoughts about the forthcoming Worlds and CoP.


    Joe
    Last edited by Joesitz; 02-26-2005 at 10:15 AM.

  2. #2
    Keeper of La Khok's Tutus Doggygirl's Avatar
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    A current favorite topic of mine, Joe!

    First a question, and then some thoughts.

    Does anyone know if the ISU plans to make the judges detailed score sheets available after each segment of the competition? Maybe I just didn't look, but I think during the GP series they only posted the detailed scores after the events were over. It would be nice to see the details after each segment of the event IMO.

    This is The Big Test for Speedy's new system. I would LOVE to see more variance in PCS scores where appropriate than we've seen so far this season. My hopes aren't high for this, but I think skaters and fans alike would have more respect for the PCS portion of COP if this somehow came to pass.

    While I would never hope for a scandal that negatively impacts ANY of the hard working skaters, I sort of hope something happens to convince Speedy that Sekret Judging is NOT the way to go. I think there is time to change that for next year, which would be a healthy change IMO.

    I will be interested to see how the non-jump elements are called (levels) for MK and even Sasha since neither has presented their programs formally under COP. It sounds like MK has gotten formal input, but sometimes that's not the same as having a program evaluated in the heat of competition. With Sasha's coaching change, I wonder if she has gotten this sort of input for her programs this year.

    It will be interesting to form a more concise opinion (based on results with all the best skaters present) about the relative importance of 3/3's for Ladies, and quads for men. I anticipate several good weeks of follow up debate on whether we think "props" were given appropriately or not in PCS and/or GOE for this.

    Great topic Joe! That's it for now, but I'm sure I will think of others.

    DG

  3. #3
    Crazy Armchair Fan/Resident Nerd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggygirl
    First a question, and then some thoughts.

    Does anyone know if the ISU plans to make the judges detailed score sheets available after each segment of the competition? Maybe I just didn't look, but I think during the GP series they only posted the detailed scores after the events were over. It would be nice to see the details after each segment of the event IMO.

    This is The Big Test for Speedy's new system. I would LOVE to see more variance in PCS scores where appropriate than we've seen so far this season. My hopes aren't high for this, but I think skaters and fans alike would have more respect for the PCS portion of COP if this somehow came to pass.


    DG
    IIRC, they post the scores after each phase of the competition, then the judges' detailed reports after the competition is over. So, we'll prolly be able to get a glimpse of who's ahead of whom, but won't know how they specifically skated. I agree it would be nice if the judges' reports were made public after each phase of the competition is completed.

    What I'm interested to see is if the PCS scores vary in relation to how good/bad a skater performs. Under OBO, if the skater didn't perform all that well technically, it would also show up on the presentation mark. Or if a skater was more of an artistic skater, their score would go up on the presentation mark. I think this kind of thing is the intention of the PCS scores, yet they are being used to hold skaters up somewhat depending on world rankings, IMHO (such as with Irina @ Euros). I think that if we have a skater like Ando skate the most amazing technical routine anyone's ever seen and she gets PCS scores that are higher than that of Cohen, there is going to be a lot of criticism of Speedy's new system and it's effectiveness

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I will be interested in seeing whether the CoP will, in the long run, lead to watered-down risk-free programs, and work to the disadvantage of skaters who try to push the envelope. If you can win with a cautious, safe, 6 triple program, then only a fool would try a triple-triple or a triple Axel or a quad.

    On the other hand, I wonder if this is just setting the stage for the next Olympic surprise. If the CoP encourages Michelle, Irina, Sasha and Shizuka to go out there with little but pretty skating in their arsenal, then someone like Miki Ando or Joanne Rochette, having nothing to lose, might do a Sarah Hughes.

    Mathman

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    Keeper of La Khok's Tutus Doggygirl's Avatar
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    I sure hope not...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    I will be interested in seeing whether the CoP will, in the long run, lead to watered-down risk-free programs, and work to the disadvantage of skaters who try to push the envelope. If you can win with a cautious, safe, 6 triple program, then only a fool would try a triple-triple or a triple Axel or a quad.

    On the other hand, I wonder if this is just setting the stage for the next Olympic surprise. If the CoP encourages Michelle, Irina, Sasha and Shizuka to go out there with little but pretty skating in their arsenal, then someone like Miki Ando or Joanne Rochette, having nothing to lose, might do a Sarah Hughes.

    Mathman
    ITA that I hope COP does not bring on a bunch of watered down programs. I somehow don't think so. People like Ando and Rochette already have the jump arsenal going on, and with some improvements in the non-jump elements have the potential to bring on surprises IMO. Especially if they have nothing to lose when they skate.

    DG

  6. #6
    Go NJ Devils
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    I will be interested in seeing whether the CoP will, in the long run, lead to watered-down risk-free programs, and work to the disadvantage of skaters who try to push the envelope. If you can win with a cautious, safe, 6 triple program, then only a fool would try a triple-triple or a triple Axel or a quad.
    Mathman
    LOL! How many clean seven-triple programs have we ever seen (from the Ladies'), even in the late 80's and early 90's, when 3Z/3T was more common among the top competitors? A clean six- triple program is actually quite an achievement.

    In order to make up for the elusive 7th triple in base score -- for those few Ladies' that have landed one or two 3/3's and all of their other jumps -- it takes quite a few L2's and L3 spirals. So a competitive six-triple program must be filled with harder spins, spirals, and footwork, all of which increase risk in their own way: risk of going off center, risk of wobbling on a spiral, risk of tripping or falling out of footwork (see Kwan at the first cheezefest attempting twizzles). And the judges might even start deducting for these some year.

    3/3's fell off the radar, except intermittently for Slutskaya for some, and more consistently with Ando and the younger Japanese skaters, but both happened under 6.0/OBO, not CoP. Under CoP a single "wow" jump combination no longer jumps an entire program, like Kostner's 3F/3T at Dortmund to open and a program that fell apart soon after did to Sebestyen's, Poykio's, and Rochette's, at least on the technical scores.

  7. #7
    Down With It
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    Some questions I have:

    - Is the Cop a consistent scoring system?
    - Can the Cop scores at worlds finally be compared to Cop scores at respective Nationals? (unlike 6.0, where a 6.0 at nationals and 6.0 at worlds meant different things)
    - Will the judging be fair?
    - Will the Qualifying round score even matter anymore?
    - Will top skaters no longer be able to control their destiny? (I mean, if someone builds a 10-15 point lead...)
    - Stay tuned for more, coming up next.

  8. #8
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyfan228
    LOL! How many clean seven-triple programs have we ever seen (from the Ladies'), even in the late 80's and early 90's, when 3Z/3T was more common among the top competitors? A clean six- triple program is actually quite an achievement.
    That is an excellent point. I guess I was spoiled by all those 7 triple programs that Michelle has skated (11 of them).

    I quite agree that 6 clean triples, a little nod in the direction of higher level spins and transitions, and a show of getting into the passion of the music, will win this competition -- for Michelle, Irina, Sasha, or whoever can pull it off.

    Mathman

  9. #9
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    My main interest in the Worlds is comparing the elements and how they are scored among the judges. For example, The Spiral : Irina's Bielman, Sasha's Stunning, Michelle's Change Edge Coverage:

    1. What will the Technical Assistant call if he is the one say it is a Level 1,2,3?

    2. Given the subjectivity of 'beauty', what reactions will the judges have in scoring those spirals?

    3. Will the judges allow for variances in spirals as optional?

    4. Will one of the skater's (mentioned above) Spirals become the norm for all other skaters just because it is considered the best, and to get more points you have to do it her way.

    Remember, that's just one element!

    Joe

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