Another CoP question

What makes for a level-3 spin? I've read the ISU description. The only spin I see scored level 3 is Jeff Buttle's combo spin. Who else does a level-3 spin and what is it? Is it nearly impossible to be considered a level-3?

I believe bielmans are considered level three.

I don't think a Bielman position makes anything a level 3.

IIRC, two of the top ladies who have gotten level 3's on spins this year are Slute and Shiz. I can't remember what positions Shiz got into on hers.

IIRC there have been relatively few level 3 anything for the men this year. But I haven't really dug into my analysis on that like I've done for the ladies so I could be way wrong.

DG

ETA: If a Bielman IS what it takes, I'm gonna barf right now and figure out another sport to watch.

DG

I don't care how well a skater does a spin. I want to know if that spin is a level 1,2 or 3 and how is that arrived at.

If Jeff Buttle got a level 3 on a spin, what spin was it? or
did he get +3 for executing some spin in a superlative manner?

This is important in CoP. If you think Irina gets credited with a Level 3 spin then gets a +3 because she does it well. That's a lot of points on one element.

Joe

Hi Joe.

The level 3 spin I'm looking at for Irina is from COR. It was the 4th element scored in her LP.

It was a FCSp (Flying Camel) Spin called at level 3. The base value was 3, and the GOE was a "net" of +.6. 8 judges gave her +1, 2 judges gave her +2, and 2 judges gave her 0. She received 3.6 points total (obviously) for this element.

For Shiz's level 3 spin example, I'm looking at her NHK SP. Her last element was a CCoSp (Spin combo with change of position and change of foot) and was evaluated as level 3. Base value for the spin was 3.5. "Net" GOE was .8. 6 judges gave her +2 GOE. 4 judges gave her +1 GOE. The other 2 gave her 0 GOE.

On the surface it seems to me that the GOE was more "all over the place" for the Shiz element at NHK than the Slute element at COR. GOE as well as PCS continue to be something I'm curious about as COP develops.

DG

Last year skaters were given level 3 spins more often - I know that Jeff and Emanuel both got them for their combo spins last year.

This year, the only level 3 spin I've seen was at Canadians for Jeff - his running three turns into back camel/back sit/back camel/catch foot spin got a level 3 there (though oddly, his final combination spin has been marked only a level 1 most of the time this season). But the level 3 he got on that one spin doesn't really count, cause it's not an ISU event.

Thanks Doggygirl and Screech. What I am looking for and I should have been clearer is the matter of the base score plus the goe on any spin by whomever.

Are the level of the spins determined by the Technical Assistant's calls? or are they written in the rules, as are the jumps?

If it is up to the Tech Asst to call the levels in spins then the spin has already been given a goe so why give another one.

If the spins are written in the rules and have Levels already imbedded in them, then it is just a matter of goe to be added. So if a Flying Camel gets a Level 3 by the rules (and not by the Caller), then the judges give it the goe additions or subtractions. Am I correct?

What if a skater falls on a spin? Is there credit for the attempt?

Joe

There are no descriptions for levels of difficults of jumps, split twists, or pairs throws. A jumps that is more than X.75 rotated is called a X+1 revolution jump, and each X+1-revolution jump has a fixed point value. Steps or difficult entrances can increase the GOE, if the jump is at least a +2 to start, and they can increase the transitions PCS. (I think this is wrong, and that difficult entrances should be called either a higher level or be called and given a bonus, regardless of execution.) A delay in the air or a change of position (Tano arm, for example) can increase a base jump to a +1.

The levels of difficult for all spins, spirals, lifts, and footwork sequences are described in detail on the ISU site:

Singles

Pairs

Dance OD/FD

These are .pdf files, and there's no way to cut and paste; everything has to be retyped.

From a separate post on the board (with Cohen references edited out), the requirements for Spiral Sequences are:

"According to the level two guidelines, a spin must have three of four features: Sequence incorporates three or more spiral positions, one difficult variations [sic] of position, spirals are skating [sic] forward and back, and use of both edges.

Level three requires five features, including free leg in a total split position either sideway [sic] or forward, but holding with one arm, and unsupported spiral position with the free leg either sideways or forward."

Callers call the level, where levels are assigned, and judges enter the GOE.

According to the GOE documentation, a fall on a spin

a. In any phase except during the entrance of a spin, GOE is -3 off start value (of 0 or +1)

b. During the entrance, the spin gets 0 points.

Here's the link:

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152083-169299-64126-0-file,00.pdf

The full list of ISU documents is located at:

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-152055-169271-nav-list,00.html

Michelle's layback spin

What level is Michelle's hands-clasped-behind-back spin? From what I have read (I could have misunderstood), it's level 2. If so, I'm surprised because it's a relatively easy layback spin.

I think that in order to upgrade it to a level two she had to put in more changes of position. This hurt her back leading up to the Campbell's competion, so she has not worked on it as much as she wanted to.

MM

apache88 said:

What level is Michelle's hands-clasped-behind-back spin? From what I have read (I could have misunderstood), it's level 2. If so, I'm surprised because it's a relatively easy layback spin.

Click to expand...

Ask the skater, if you will, it's NOT EASY with hands-clasped-behind-back. Maybe the leg position is easier, you see a lot skaters who can't do classic leg position use the same leg position, but non of them or very little of them use the same arm position as Michelle. That hands-clasped-behind-back position would constantly cause you fall back on your butt if you don't know the trick. I knew a young skater who spent over two weeks to get into that position without falling backwards, while she got it right on all her other spin positions quickly.

I was referring to Jeff's combo spin at Canadians being a level 3. I just happened to check out the Canadians scorecards and noticed that Jeff only had one level 3 spin. That surprised me because his spins are quite difficult. Then I starting looking at other skaters and couldn't find any level 3 spins.

Some of CoP is still so confusing!:think:

It was web reported that this years critirials are much strict than last year's. Some spins called level 3 would be called on level 2 this year.

If you do feel more than one of Jeff's spin should be called on level 3, may be it will at worlds? One critirias of level 3 spin is more rotations than the required rotations. (for example in comb spin a position will be counted only if it hold on two rotations, the rotations used for transition dosn't count). Since he and/or all skaters are aiming for worlds, I'd expect at the worlds their spin could be faster thus include more rotations. It could happen at the worlds. Unless worlds tech caller applying rules more strict.

Is there a difference in value between a lay back spin in the classical attitude position versus the lay back with leg-down but hands behind the back that Michelle does?

I love both but as a completely non-flexible, un-balanced (physically, lol) and not strong person...I'm curious what makes it hard/easy (relatively) to obtain the classical lay back position...is it back flexibility or something about leg and back strength??? Sorry if you've been over this before.

Last year Tatiana Basova of all people got a level 3 spin.

mzheng said:

Ask the skater, if you will, it's NOT EASY with hands-clasped-behind-back. Maybe the leg position is easier, you see a lot skaters who can't do classic leg position use the same leg position, but non of them or very little of them use the same arm position as Michelle. That hands-clasped-behind-back position would constantly cause you fall back on your butt if you don't know the trick. I knew a young skater who spent over two weeks to get into that position without falling backwards, while she got it right on all her other spin positions quickly.

Click to expand...

I used to think it was difficult but according to Dick, it's not. It's not easy either but just not dificult.

I duno, the young skater I was talking about has been copying Jeff's spin positions without big problems. All I know Jeff's spin is known for its difficulty.