Opinions on the Graf F4000?

I'm in the market for new boots and I'm really interested in the new hinged boot Graf has out, the F4000. Can anyone give their opinion on them?

I blew through a pair of Edmonton Specials in 2 months, but continued wearing them for 6 months through a few rebuilds. It was the most comfortable boot I've ever tried (Wifa, Rose, SP Teri, Harlick, Reidell). The problem was that it never creased properly when I bent. It bowed outwards at the ankle notches - opening the boot, rather than creasing inwards and further hugging my ankle. The angle of the back of the boot was also a problem as it dug into my achillies tendon and I still have a painful lump from it 18 months later.

I was hoping that these new hinged boots would break in better and crease properly - it looked promising when I tried them on, but I can't really tell for sure. Also the back seems to be more vertical at the top rather than angled forward like the Edmonton special - so hopefully it won't cut in when I point my toes.

Does anyone know how they compare in stiffness to the Graf Edmonton Specials? I've been known to be tough on boots because of skating with deep knees and having high jumps. Any suggestions???

Thanks in advance for your help,

Cassie

Cassie,

Sounds like you have been around the block with boots. I don't know that I would go with the same maker. Have you considered Klingbeil's? I moved to customs from custom SP Teri (the worst boot I have ever used). I love the Klings. I just don't know about the hinged boot...

I've always been curious about Klingbeil's. They get such rave reviews on this forum, people I've spoken to that skate in them say they are bullet proof, and Sasha Cohen seems to do well with them. I'm in Vancouver Canada, and Klingbeil's are pretty uncommon here. The skate shops have said a few negative things about them as well - maybe just because they don't carry them and want to push other products instead. The most common thing I've heard is that they are really heavy. Although I was just reading recently that they've been constructing them with lighter weight materials, maybe that isn't an issue any longer. Do you know where I could get my hands on a pair of Klingbeil's to try on? I'd love to see how they fit my feet!

I'm a little skeptical :think: about the hinged boot myself, even though it felt really good when I tried it on... that's why I'm asking people here for their opinions. Perhaps I'll also try going down to the Center of Excellence (home to Emanuel Sandhu) and see if anyone is skating in these new F4000's.

At least the hinged boot in your picture is very attractive. From the reading that I have done, that was the knock on the hinged boot design, they just didn't look as nice. But this on does.

Cborsky, what about the hing feature itself? Is that a factor in your choice?

Mathman

http://www.jacksonskates.com/html/frames/frameset-prod.html

The Graf boot looks much nicer-the Jackson is very bulky and clunky looking.

Just my 2cents worth.

Yes, I see what you mean. In fact, on the Graf boot I don't even see the hinge.

(To see the boot, click on "return to Jackson.skates" at the top of SkateDeleware's link, then click on the picture of the hinged boot.)

MM.

It's too bad that you can't see the inside of the boot. The outer ankle part you see actually goes over an inner boot, so there are no pinch points or joints to hurt your ankles. It seems very solid. It has more lateral stability than a conventional boot but it still allows you to bend your knees relatively easily. In theory, it sounds like a good idea, but I'm unsure of how it will actually work.

In answer to your question, Mathman, it is a factor in my choice but only with respect to performance. Will it work better for me than the traditional graf, or will the hinge allow me to bend too easily? I'm not concerned about how it looks, from far away I don't think you'll be able to tell... not like the Jackson!

cborsky said:

I've always been curious about Klingbeil's. They get such rave reviews on this forum, people I've spoken to that skate in them say they are bullet proof, and Sasha Cohen seems to do well with them. I'm in Vancouver Canada, and Klingbeil's are pretty uncommon here. The skate shops have said a few negative things about them as well - maybe just because they don't carry them and want to push other products instead. The most common thing I've heard is that they are really heavy. Although I was just reading recently that they've been constructing them with lighter weight materials, maybe that isn't an issue any longer. Do you know where I could get my hands on a pair of Klingbeil's to try on? I'd love to see how they fit my feet!

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I have heard people say that Klings are heavy also. However, Don Klingbeil was shocked at how heavy my S.P. Teri's were when I took them to the lab with me....where, incidentally, he was building a new pair of skates for Sasha. I don't get it. They do not feel heavy to me. I had to actually compensate for the lighter weight of the Klings when I first got them. I was used to horsing my foot around on a sit spin, or camel, or any element that required the lifting of the boot. I was flinging myself off balance due to the fact that the boot was lighter than the Teri. I have heard some naysayers about Klingbeil. Either they had someone that could not fit them, or there were extenuating circumstances. I don't buy it. I have thrown more money at custom boots than I care to think about and Klingbeil is the only maker that I have been happy with. After 3 years of skating in Teri's I still could not be in my boots for more than an hour or two and I was constantly relacing. I would recommend contacting Klingbeil directly to find out where you can get fitted, or if the can send you the info to get it done. I hope that this insight helps. Take a look at the Jackson hinged boot...it looks like a science fair project.

Glacierskater said:

Take a look at the Jackson hinged boot...it looks like a science fair project.

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Hahaha, I had the same thoughts when I followed that link and saw a picture of it for the first time. The flex that they show seems rather extreme. The tongue cuts way into the ankle at a sharp angle - what were they thinking? I'd really like to know how they develop skate boots... do they work with skaters on the design, refining it until it's right? Sometimes I wonder...

I remember seeing some sort of documentary type thing during a skating event when they were first talking about the hinged boot. It looked weird then too. I did not actually think that they would do it. Kind of like crash helmets with pairs skating....it can be done, but should it?

If you look on the back cover of the most recent International Figure Skating magazine there is a big picture of the "Jackson Ultima" hinged boot. Also on the back cover is a new blade called the "Matrix" that has a interchangeable blade. I wonder how that blade would perform.

dlkksk8fan said:

If you look on the back cover of the most recent International Figure Skating magazine there is a big picture of the "Jackson Ultima" hinged boot. Also on the back cover is a new blade called the "Matrix" that has a interchangeable blade. I wonder how that blade would perform.

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We were looking at this in the pros' room yesterday at my rink, and wondering which would be worse, the boot or the blade! Suffice it to say that none of us volunteered to try them out!

Thanks for your opinions everyone. I tried on the F-4000 in my size today, but decided against it. The boot just didn't fit my foot as well as the Graf Edmonton Special.

I bought the Edmonton Special, and I'm sending them to the shop tomorrow to get the backs flared out at the top so they don't dig into my achillies. I should be skating in them on Saturday!

I'm excited!!!

cborsky said:

Thanks for your opinions everyone. I tried on the F-4000 in my size today, but decided against it. The boot just didn't fit my foot as well as the Graf Edmonton Special.

I bought the Edmonton Special, and I'm sending them to the shop tomorrow to get the backs flared out at the top so they don't dig into my achillies. I should be skating in them on Saturday!

I'm excited!!!

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And I'm excited for you, Cborsky! As some of the posters on this thread know, I've been very interested in the hinged skate boot for a couple of years now. I'm late right now and can't write much--awww, too bad, lol--but I would love to hear every detail of how you respond to the Graf. At least now figure skaters have some choice in the type of boot they decide to use. Good luck, Cborsky!

Slightly OT: Does anybody know if any top competitive or pro skaters have tried the hinged skate boot? I heard Timothy Goebel had tried a pair, but this was about a year ago and I don't know which brand it was.

Rgirl

cborsky said:

Thanks for your opinions everyone. I tried on the F-4000 in my size today, but decided against it. The boot just didn't fit my foot as well as the Graf Edmonton Special.

I bought the Edmonton Special, and I'm sending them to the shop tomorrow to get the backs flared out at the top so they don't dig into my achillies. I should be skating in them on Saturday!

I'm excited!!!

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I am interested in the Edmonton Special. They were the only other boot that I considered when I got my Klings. Do tell! Did they come with the rhinestones in the back?

They don't come with rhinestone's but I got the skate shop to put some in for me! For my last pair, I spent a week of evenings in front of the tv trying to wedge little sparkles into the back So you can put your own on too, or add more if you like.

For me, the Edmonton Special just fits my foot. I have narrow feet with flat arches (but I wear orthotics to compensate in my skates) and I wear a size 6 S Edmonton Special. They come in 3 different widths, and S is the narrowest one. I like it because there is lots of room in the toe area, it's quite rounded and blunt, rather than coming to a sharp point like most skates. They've been the only boots where I can wiggle my toes while still feeling nice a snug. The heel fits well with lots of padding around the achillies to keep my heel from slipping upwards when I bend. They are also very light weight. When I tried my jumps with them for the first time they felt easier and higher than before, it was a dramatic difference!

There is only one negative which can be minor or major depending on how you look at it. The back of the boot angles forwards all the way to the top. It doesn't angle more vertical once it passes the heel like most boots do. I've developed painful lumps from the top of the boot pressing on my achillies that haven't gone away after a year of being in a different boot. They don't hurt as much now, mind you, but they are still there. To remedy this, I have the backs of the ankles flared out so there is less of a pressure point. Had I done this before I got the lumps, I probably would never have had a problem. Now that they are sensitive, I might get the back of the boot cut down so they don't touch the spot all together. We're lucky here in Vancouver to have a really good skate shop and a really knowledgable and skilled boot technician that can do all the work.

Other than that, I've found the Edmonton Special to not hold up as long as my Harlicks. It may be the way that I bend - my geometry might be different that the boot was designed for. And there is also the fact that Harlicks are built like bricks compared to the Edmonton Special! But I don't mind buying new boots more frequently if they are going to perform well and be comfortable - which these have done both. :agree:

P.S. I did get to skate in them on Saturday, thanks to a great turn around time from the shop that flared the backs and mounted the blades in <24 hours. They were soooo awesome! I felt so at ease skating in them, the blades were straight and they felt like they were just an extension of my legs. I struggled in my Reidel Royals for over a year and they always felt like they didn't belong. But these Grafs felt juuuuust right.

Gald to hear that you are liking the boots. I would love to find a way to get stones on my boots. I tried the heels but I think that the Sno Seal keeps the glue from sticking. Bummer...

Glacierskater said:

Gald to hear that you are liking the boots. I would love to find a way to get stones on my boots. I tried the heels but I think that the Sno Seal keeps the glue from sticking. Bummer...

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I always, but always, wear boot covers (over-boot tights in competition), so stones on my boots would be a disaster - but you could always attach stones to white boot-covers.....

My daughter is interested in puchasing the graf specials this time. I am concerned about the problem with the achilles that you had, as I have heard this same complaint from a few other skaters.

By flaring out at the ankle, do you mean stretching the top of the boot backwards, or actually inside the boot just about the ankle line?

And do you continue to be pleased with the results?