Michelle's Spins

Re: What's loving MK got to do with it?

Yup Berthes Ghost - Kwan would never sacrifice the beautiful artistry of skating for a quad or any other beans a jumping. She's too much a definition of a figure skater, especially now in a sport that is leaning towards extreme youth and extreme tricks.

Nevertheless - rGirl and many other GS posters who find her mediocre (for want of a better adjective) is perfectly in line with any kind of Sport or Art. Not everyone loves Venus Williams; not everyone loves Heifitz. Why should they? but they can still 'like' them.

Joe

Re: What's loving MK got to do with it?

I would have to say kwan would give up a few things to become a technical master. Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't kwan a jumping bean when she was younger? 95 worlds is an evident of that, she was jumping all over the place.
The next season(96), she and coach decided to dedicate a lot of time on the presention side, thus missing out on practicing difficult 3/3s.

Some members might not agree here, but I think all skaters should learn the technical side of skating first.Master it and then evolve as an artist.
Prefect example of that is Irina Slutskaya. I am be a BIG fan of hers, but the word ""artistry" was not in Irina's vocabulary when she first burst in to the skating world.
Her earlier programs had choreography, but not enough that would compete against Kwan,Lu and bobeck. But she sure did out jump those skaters.
But Slutskaya went back and dedicated a lot of time to her artistic side. IMO, she has really evolved as an artist. for example, "Schindler's List"(she had me crying through out the program) "Cry of the forest"(she had button and peggy gushing through out her performence at Keri lotion classic) "Autumn leaves" "Samson and Delilah" "Appassionata"
and so on.
Another example is Angela Nik. She wasn't the artist she is today. Everyone remember her "mummy" program? Button sure did criticize that program.
But look at Angela today, her "just for you" program is one of the best programs out there IMO.
In a few more years, I might use Yoshie Honda as example of technician turned artistic master.

(Sorry I went off topic)

Re: What's loving MK got to do with it?

Just to add, I don't think learning a CW camel spin has anything to do with the speed of her normal spins, I certainly don't think they slowed them down or anything like that. It isn't that common, but plenty of other people have learnt to spin in both directions, eg. pairs teams where they rotate different ways. They can jump different ways, but they have to spin the same way, so one partner has to learn to spin the other way. Also, Stephane Lambiel (Swiss, came 4th at Euros 02) can apparently do double axels both directions, but he is a fantastic spinner, following the Swiss tradition. OT, but I really hope he medals this year and makes a great showing at worlds. He's amazing! Got everything.

Re: What's loving MK got to do with it?

Good examples of learning technical and ignoring artistry .. Volchkova and Geobel -- 2 skaters who don't move me whatsoever. Artistry is much harder to aquire than it looks, as we can see from Volchkova's botchy LP and Tim's hunch neck. (how long now has he been trying to acquire artistry now?? well its not working!!) Both elements, technical and artistry, need to be worked on continuously throughout the skater's career.

Re: What's loving MK got to do with it?

the trouble Steve is that if the presentation improves 1 per cent the presentation scores go up .5. It's the presenation scores that rule the waves. I think Irina is definitely a super high technical skater but still, I don't see her .1 below MK or SC or FS in presentation. More like .3 would be better. But hey, that's me.

Joe

skating

Irina's programs seem to waver between having some artistry and none at all (this year's programs unfortunately fall into the latter category thus far). Contrary to popular belief, Irina is strong on SOME elements of the pressentation mark. Her stroking is very strong and powerful, she really covers the ice. This is important, because "Ice Coverage" and "Variation of Speed" are two of the presentation criteria.

The reason Irina's skating doesn't do much for me is because one of the first things I look at when watching a skater is carriage/posture, which is also one of the presentation criteria. Sasha and Michelle are both extremely strong on this element. Irina's carriage/posture, in contrast, isn't very good. Carriage/posture is also why I dislike Tim Goebel's skating, though I like him personally. He needs to take lessons from Paul Wylie.

Irina has very strong edges. I didn't realize this until I saw several pictures of her doing spirals. I wonder if this gets overlooked because her carriage/posture is poor?

Re: skating

Speaking of spins, do you think Lucinda Ruh is the fastest spinner?, is true she can make 270 rpm???, did she entered in the Guiness book?

Sorry for too many questions but i have doubts of all these things and i wanna know your opinion.

Kwan spins are slow, somebody wrote here she spun fast in Rush, i´d like to see that program.

Re: Michelle's Spins

mathman444 :

Some skaters are better spinners than others - just like jumpers. Take Jeff Buttle for example - he is an excellent spinner - stays "dead on" his centre while spinning and spins extremely fast - this takes lots of work and energy to develop. The better centred a spin the faster the spin. This could explain why Michelle's spins are not fast - she might not be centred well.

As for the dizziness - again skaters must learn how to overcome this - most find a focal point and don't take their eyes off it while spinning.

The best spins are centred (no traveling), fast and done in interesting positions.

Ladskater

Re: skating

rgirl said "So just to include a bit of the actual topic, whether Michelle is a fast or slow spinner doesn't matter much to me. It's just a technical element that's interesting to discuss and would be nice to see improved, but those who are moved by Michelle's programs are not moved because of the speed of her spins. And for those who are not moved, faster spins aren't going to change their reactions. You noticed the discrepency on the speed of her spins and yet I feel secure in saying that it doesn't affect the way you feel about Michelle one bit"

Well said rgirl, you are so right. Whatever technical weaknesses Michelle has wouldn't in anyway lessen the way I feel for her skating. The reason I started this thread is because I'm inquisitive about skating, I need you guys to help me understand and appreciate Michelle's skating more (not that I like skating per se). I want to understand Michelle's strengths and weaknesses so that I know what I'm seeing when I'm watching her skate. And you guys definitely are a great help, I can't thank you enough.

rrgirl, now I understand why you are not a Michelle fan. As you said, it's like falling in love. It happens even in tennis (my fave sport). I just can't appreciate Williams's talents no matter how great they are simply because I don't like their game. On the other hand, I love Seles's game.

Variation of spins

Is it common to have the same kind of spins season in season out? Michelle seems to always do camel, sit-spin, y-spin, lay-back and scrath-spin, not necessarily in that order. I happened to see Sarah do a donut-spin and it looked great. Has Michelle done it? I generally don't watch other skaters so I wouldn't know if Michelle's spins are exactly what other skaters are doing.

Re: Variation of spins

"I happened to see Sarah do a donut-spin'

I am a huge Sarah fan, I don't remember Hughes ever doing a donut on a stick spin. Are you thinking about the half Biellman instead?

I think AP, Arakawa, and Oksana are the only skaters off the top of my head who have done donut spins.

Now Lucindah Ruh has a wonderful pancake spin.

I love Yuka Sato, and I think she has wonderful spins. She has the most beautiful camel spin in the www. I think her spin variations include camel, scratch, and layback only.

BTW, Michelle has a cross foot spin too. She tried the catch foot half Biellman once.

Re: Variation of spins

Plushy also does a donut spin, at least starting this season he has. He does it in his SP and also in his St. Petersburg 300 LP. He's not just one of the, if not the best jumper in the world, but a very flexible guy, too<img src="http://64.207.13.28/mysmilies/otn/tongue/rryumy.gif"/>.

Re: Artistry and Spinning: General Comments

Excidra--ITA with you about Irina's presentation and artistry. Irina doesn't have a lot of fans on this board, but every time I've seen her with COI, which was up until 2000, her programs got a bigger response from the audience than Michelle's. I know, nobody ever believes me, and I'm sure Michelle got a much bigger ovation than anyone else in the show with "FOG." Anyway, the point is, I think Irina has wonderful presentation and artistic skills and the programs you mentioned are excellent examples. Unfortunately, her choreography tends to run hot and cold. This year "La Traviata" has practically no choreographic cohesiveness at all. The choreography for Michelle, at least the programs by Lori Nichol and Sarah Kawahawa's "FOG," has always been outstanding.

I disagree with Ogre Mage (love your name, btw) about Irina's posture. I think her posture wonderful, one of the best. Her leg line is poor because of her bowed legs and lack of foot point, but her carriage and posture are great and the way she uses her upper body is very expressive. Irina and Angela, IMO, are two of the most beautifully expressive skaters with the arms and upper bodies.

Interesting point about getting the technical first and then the artistic/presentation. I really think it depends on the skater. Goebel, for example, had/has such severe limitations with his presentation that I think he should have been urged to work on it earlier. Although I think it's true what Joe says, that poor presenation doesn't hurt you as much with the scoring as much as poor technical ability, Tim was so reliant on his quads that now with his hip injuries, he may not have much of a career left. I think if a skater has good basics, like posture, carriage, line, sense of music, then it's fine to concentrate on the technical and let the artistic/presentation side emerge as the skater matures--if they have a chance to mature before they get injured. If the skater is obviously weak in these areas, however, then I agree with Steve that it is very difficult to learn good presentation/artistic skills later in one's career. With Vika, however, I don't find her lacking in presentation as much as I find her lacking in consistency. When she skates well, I love her natural, unaffected style. It's just that when she makes mistakes, which is often, she loses all confidence and the presentation just falls apart. For me, Vika is a complex situation where she has both the technical and presentational abilities; she just can't perform them consistently at competitions.

Joe--Well said about being able to appreciate a skater without being a fan.
ApacheApach--Am glad what I said made sense to you
Eltamina--I remember seeing Sarah doing a donut spin too, but only once or twice. I can't remember in what program, but I distinctly remember thinking, "Sarah has a pretty good donut spin." Sorry, wish I could remember when I saw it. I think Sarah has the flexibility and general movement ability to do a lot of different kinds of spin positions.


Fetal--ROLFMAO at the ET cartoon. I'm so jealous of your new emoticons. I went to that joke website but couldn't find the vomit emoticon, even when I looked up all of them. I have other emoticon and cartoon sites. I'm just too lazy to link them in.

Back to spinning: Carlantz--I do think Lucinda Ruh is one of the fastest spinners out there; however, it's not just her speed. Having had the privilege of seeing her live and talking to her a bit (nice person), what impressed me most was how long she could spin and maintain speed and centering. She can even increase speed within a spin without the using the usual biomechanical methods (ie, pulling in the extremities). She said she really feels like she's in a meditative state when she spins for a long time. This doesn't surprise me. Various religious groups--the Shakers come to mind first--have used movements like stomping and spinning to work themselves into an ecstatic state. I remember reading that Lucinda can do 270rpm and has a tape that she intends to submit to The Guinness Book of World Records, but check out the interview she did for GS (thanks Paula!):
goldenskate.com/articles/...3002.shtml
for details.
Rgirl

Re: Artistry and Spinning: General Comments

The Shakers would spin themselves frantically for a religious experience? That's hilarious. Explains the name. Finally, a religious group that agrees with me: god is a pile of vomit <img src="http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/cwm/3dlil/puke.gif"/> . By the way, I get my vomit emoticons from Crack's Smilies' obscene category.

re:

Rgirl, I totally agree with you on "La Traviata". That program needs more choreography, but I think that is what Irina is trying to do. She only had "La Traviata" and her SP for a month when she was to present it at 'Cup of Russia". Maybe that is why it wasn't up to her level.
Also, Irina tends to use different choreographers for every season, with the exception of 96 to 2000 season, when she only used the great Elena Mateeva(who has done her schindler's list and cry of the forest programs among others). But Irina has said she wants a new look every season, so keeping the same choreographer would only produce the same old thing.

Re: skating

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Speaking of spins, do you think Lucinda Ruh is the fastest spinner?, is true she can make 270 rpm???, did she entered in the Guiness book?[/quote]

Actually, British skater Neil Wilson (current national mens champion) is in the Guinness Book of Records for spinning, I don't remember the exact details as I can't find the book but it's for the most revolutions in 60 seconds or something like that.

Re: Artistry and Spinning: General Comments

Fetal - If the Shakers were spinning, what were the Holy Rollers doing?

Joe

Re: Artistry and Spinning: General Comments

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I disagree with Ogre Mage (love your name, btw) about Irina's posture. I think her posture wonderful, one of the best. Her leg line is poor because of her bowed legs and lack of foot point, but her carriage and posture are great and the way she uses her upper body is very expressive. Irina and Angela, IMO, are two of the most beautifully expressive skaters with the arms and upper bodies.[/quote]

I'm glad you like the name. It comes from Dungeons and Dragons.

My complaint about Irina's carriage/posture has to do with her general stroking around the ice. She tends to have a hunched over shoulders and back which isn't pleasant to watch. Also, as you eluded to, her lines are not very good.

Irina's artistry seems to come through better in SPs then LPs. "Serenade," for instance, was a very strong program for her. But I don't think I've ever watched a long program from her which I though was pleasing artistically.

With regards to the tech vs. artistic, I think the skaters who emphasize the technical have an advantage because what they do is very quantifiable. When Tonya Harding or Midori did a 3axel, everyone in the building could see it. Its harder to base your skating on the more subjective quality of "presentation."

That said, the tech skaters tend to shoot to the top very fast and then flame out just as fast, often times because of injuries. Tara Lipinksi is a perfect example, and I fear Tim may become one as well. A skater who emphazises presentation is more likely to be able to maintain a career over a period of time (though Oksana was an unfortunate exception). Kristi Y. for instance, started off a jumper, but eventually moved into the presentation camp. She has enjoyed a long, successful professional career.

The spin on her spins

She was a faster spinner earlier in her career. Her new SP was quite good, but spinning is her weakest area.

She can do a decent scratch-should include that. But for an Icon not to have a beautiful layback with great leg position? I find that under par, given the the rest of the elite women.

Re: The spin on her spins

Icon does not equal perfection. and Mchelle's layback is far from bad. It's not as spetacular as Sarah, Sasha or Angela's but it's not below the standard either.