IMHO, easier for Michelle to improve under COP than 6.0 system | Golden Skate

IMHO, easier for Michelle to improve under COP than 6.0 system

apache88

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
From just about every forum I've visited, the same thing has been said about Michelle's impending disastrous skating results at this coming worlds which will result in her "forced" retirement to avoid further embarrassment.

I beg to differ. IMHO, even if Michelle doesn't score well under the COP at this 2005 Worlds, it's much much easier for her to improve and adjust under the COP than the 6.0 system. The reason is that the COP technical scores are straight to the point. It says clearly what is required to achieve a certain level for each specified element. To top it off, each skater has an individual score sheet that states exactly how each of their elements is scored. This allows them to evaluate how they fair against one another.

If Michelle doesn't score well for a certain element, she will know exactly what needs to be done to improve and I believe Michelle has the skills to deliver just that except her layback. As for the 6.0, the technical scores are just as subjective as the presentation scores. Hence, it's very difficult for a skater to know exactly what needs to be done to improve their technical skills.

The highly subjective part of the COP is the PCS. Now, I wouldn't bet Michelle will fair worse on the PCS when she has consistently excelled at the presentation scores under the 6.0.

That said, if the COP is revised to reward 3/3s (it should be), then it's trouble for Michelle because I believe Michelle has problems with the 3/3 at this age.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
To me, Michelle is still the one to beat under any scoring system. We'll know a little more after next week, but I hope that all the nay-sayers on the other boards that you mention are prepared to step up and eat crow if Michelle brings her A game. (But they won't. If Michelle wins the World championship, well, it's never too late to start whining about who was robbed in Moscow and its never too early to start screeching about why Michelle won't make the podium in Torino.)

Personally, I think the CoP suits Michelle's style just fine. Rack up the points by landing all your jumps, then coast home on the component scores. Like they say in golf -- "Drive for show, putt for dough."

As for triple/triples, don't worry, she's still got 'em when she needs 'em.

Mathman;)

PS. Sorry, MZheng, I hope I didn't tempt the skate gods with that one, LOL.
 

nymkfan51

Medalist
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
apache88 and mathman ... :clap:

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! I could not agree with you more.

It has been a mystery to me why so many people are convinced Michelle will crash and burn under COP. I'm afraid to say that I think for some it may just be wishful thinking.
Michelle's skating is the same ... no matter what judging system is used. Her overall quality is high enough that she should fare well under any circumstances ... if she skates a good program.
My feeling all along has been that she has been taking things slow and easy for one reason ... she has discovered that her body can't take the constant pounding it did 4 years ago ... and that she would sort of "save herself" for as long as she could, knowing that next year will take a lot out of her.
I do believe she can do a 3/3 ... but if she can't, that's not a death sentence for her either IMO. This season has shown me that there is no one leading the pack on a consistent basis, so next season is not a sure thing for anyone.

I personally can't wait for this event ... it should be quite a ride!!!
 

2ndmark

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
The endless speculation of what may or may not be Michelle Kwan's fate at the upcoming world championships in inevitable.

Regardless of what her future holds, surely we can all agree that she has been a breathtaking ambassador for our sport. Let us please give this remarkable young woman the respect she deserves and has earned.

My fondest hope for all involved, competitors and fans alike, is that everyone skates to the absolute best of their abilities in Moscow next week. Wouldn't that be thrilling?
 

gracefulswan

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 16, 2003
i think this will be one of the most anticipated lady's world championship in history. we've got several things going for that: new COP being used, kwan never having been judged under it, multiple contenders for gold (not just 2 or even 3)... and the moscow controversy... will there be one? the atmosphere is ripe.. and will sasha prove she's the best once and for all under COP?.. all these answered and more!

the drama should be intense and unforgettable. this is one worlds i wouldn't miss for anything, LOL :agree:
 

brad640

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
gracefulswan said:
i think this will be one of the most anticipated lady's world championship in history.

I agree, gracefulswan, and the suspense is killing me. Today I had the thought that Joannie could really win the gold medal if:
1)Irina and Michelle have solid skates, but not the performance of a lifetime,
2)Sasha and Shizuka have flashes of brilliance and a couple if mistakes.
3)Miki lands her jumps, but is scored down for her PCS and GOE like she has all season,
4)Joannie has the performance of a lifetime, as she seems to have been building toward all season.

I think this is possible because Joannie has been steadily improving, assuming she did not peak at nationals. She has the 3-3s and she has great, difficult choreography with tested COP strategy. My one reservation with her has been that her interpretive skills haven't been up to the level of David Wilson's very demanding choreography (I think her program is more difficult than what any of the other ladies will attempt at worlds), but I could see her skating with her heart at worlds and becoming a great surprise.
 

KwanFan1212

Joey Votto Fangirl
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
I have to agree, I think Michelle will be just fine under CoP and I can't wait for next week. She tends to peak at Worlds and after a good but not fabulous LP in Portland, she will come out ready to go. :rock:

As far as my nerves go with regards to Worlds next week....well, I've stocked up on some Tums if that tells you anything, LOL :laugh:
 

michaelfsfan

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 21, 2005
nymkfan51 said:
It has been a mystery to me why so many people are convinced Michelle will crash and burn under COP.

I believe it's called schadenfreude (pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others). ;)
 

michaelfsfan

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Personally, I think that the Kwanhaters have wanted to write Michelle off for years, and CoP is their last hope, but if she does well at Worlds, then they will rant and rave about how she was "held up" by her PCS. :sheesh:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
To me, it's about the skating, not the judging system. It's about the skaters, not the judges. If Michelle or anyone else skates a performance worthy of winning under ordinal judging, I would expect that performance to win under point-total judging, too.

Put simply, if Michelle (or anyone else) skates the best but doesn't win, that's an indictment of the scoring system. :yes:

Mathman
 

LegalGirl82

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 29, 2004
Mathman said:
We'll know a little more after next week, but I hope that all the nay-sayers on the other boards that you mention are prepared to step up and eat crow if Michelle brings her A game.

Personally, I think the CoP suits Michelle's style just fine. Rack up the points by landing all your jumps, then coast home on the component scores. Like they say in golf -- "Drive for show, putt for dough."

As for triple/triples, don't worry, she's still got 'em when she needs 'em. [END QUOTE]

ITA Mathman! :clap: :rock:

Have a blast, Michelle! :yes:
 
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R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Really. I don't get all this doom-and-gloom over MK. Yes, she hasn't competed under the Cop system but a lot of skaters' debut at Cop were successful (think Cohen during 03-04 GP season). I think if mk skates well she'll be up there, no matter what judging system is used. Whether she wins or not just depends on what she brings to the table relative to everybody else.

And yes, it's easier to make improvements under this new scoring system. However, the system seems to discourage risk-taking that usually either pays off big or nails your grave.
 

Eeyora

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 4, 2003
To me most of the COP's could be easy for Michelle to master. Her jump technique is solid. She is certainly capable of adding inbetweens to her elements. She at one time had more than anyother skater. Her footwork is amazing. Some say it does need some tweaking. She is certainly capable of a level 3 spiral. Her only majior obstacle is spins. To bad Gustav Lussi is no longer alive.
 

Crizzy

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
MK was never known for her spins, the only spins that I :love: was her Crescent moon layback. However, she has improved her spin combinations by trying out new things like the Corkscrew sit spin and several change of edge on her spins ala Marshalls. She actually has it in her to do COE. The only spin that the judges will punish her for is her layback. I think she'll need a major overhaul on this. She's fine in attaining level 2 because there isn't much difference on this and from level 2 to level 3 is very subjective. She just need to rack as much GOEs.

She doesn't need harder entrance to ALL her jumps, just some and the rest simple footwork will do, main thing is she land all her jumps, fully rotated. Her spiral is a thing of beauty, it's the last spiral that will need more work. Then again the rules on how long a skater is suppose to hold the spiral is still blurry. I don't know if she has added more MITF instead of the crossover. I guess we'll have to see at Worlds. But her basking skating skills is one of the best out there. Her stroking is awesome and she doesn't screak her blades so she'll get good points on that.

Now the million dollar question is "will she have a 3/3?" Having a 3/3 is not important because not everyone is landing it fairly consistently and if they do land it, it is downgraded. Or if they do land the 3/3, chances are the rest of the jumps may suffer. It really depends on who and what they can bring to the table. But having a 3/3 is also necessary to give Michelle an edge, even if it's not much of a point. In the judges eyes that proves to them, she's willing to "up the ante", which to me is overrated anyway, considering that no one is landing 3/3 consistently, quad or 3 axel including in the men's division.
 

Frau Muller

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 1, 2005
Apache88, mathman, et. al. - You're right. I believe that the naysayers on Michelle will be eating crow about one week from now. True, it's Irina Slutskaya's gold medal to lose, based on her performance so far this season. However, as we all know, even Irina has been know to buck under pressure & the pressure on her to win on home ice will be enormous.

Michele's non-technical elements could score sky high, and her technical elements are good enough to keep her in the podium mix.
 

brad640

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Eeyora said:
To me most of the COP's could be easy for Michelle to master. Her jump technique is solid. She is certainly capable of adding inbetweens to her elements. She at one time had more than anyother skater. Her footwork is amazing. Some say it does need some tweaking. She is certainly capable of a level 3 spiral. Her only majior obstacle is spins. To bad Gustav Lussi is no longer alive.
Crizzy said:
MK was never known for her spins, the only spins that I was her Crescent moon layback. However, she has improved her spin combinations by trying out new things like the Corkscrew sit spin and several change of edge on her spins ala Marshalls. She actually has it in her to do COE. The only spin that the judges will punish her for is her layback. I think she'll need a major overhaul on this. She's fine in attaining level 2 because there isn't much difference on this and from level 2 to level 3 is very subjective. She just need to rack as much GOEs.

Irina definitely will beat Michelle on spins. Michelle is a proficient spinner, but she has never really tried to dazzle with her spins like she has with the spiral and her footwork. I think some of Michelle's best spinning was in Lyra when she did the extended change of direction spin sequence, but even that was slow. USFSA has used her sit spin position as an example to young skaters of how the classic back position and foot turn out should look. Irina's spins have always been fast with a good center, but I find her positions to be a little sloppy compared to Michelle. I think if Michelle did faster spins with more rotations it could take away energy she needs for her jumps,and right now she is using her extra energy for the straight line footwork.

In the past, Michelle has beaten Irina because Irina ends up making a couple of mistakes on the jumps, and Irina's artistry has not been strong compared to Michelle. Michelle typically has great landing edges and runout on her jumps but not much height, and Irina has great height but she sometimes lands at a standstill, especially on her jump combinations. Irina has been working hard with COP by adding the Bielman spiral in place of her old spirals which were some of the worst in senior skating. For some reason, she does not seem to have the strength to hold her positions without assisting with her arms, which the Bielman allows her to do.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Michelle's spins are well-centered and do not travel, while Irina's spins at times travel wildly. Irina wins on level of difficulty hands down, but Michelle's may get better GOE.

Irina has bigger jumps, but she also telegraphs badly in order to set them up. That's one of the reasons Michelle has outdone Irina in the presentation department.

Irina has hit gold with the Biellmann, but I think at some point new rules with regard to over-repetition of the same element will kick in, since many skaters, noting Irina's success, are now doing the same thing and Bielmanning everything in sight.
 
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diamondqueen

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 4, 2003
IMHO,easier for Michelle to improve under COP

I believe Michelle Kwan :clap: is the one to beat. She is a 5 time World Champion who just keeps getting better.

diamond :love:

Good Luck Michelle in going for #6
 

apache88

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Eeyora said:
To me most of the COP's could be easy for Michelle to master. Her jump technique is solid. She is certainly capable of adding inbetweens to her elements. She at one time had more than anyother skater. Her footwork is amazing. Some say it does need some tweaking. She is certainly capable of a level 3 spiral. Her only majior obstacle is spins. To bad Gustav Lussi is no longer alive.

Yes, you summed up what I intended to say. The thing about the COP technical scores is that they are very specific. Each skater knows exactly how their elements are scored and what they can do to improve. Michelle, as you put it, definitely has all the skills to rack up points. Now, even if she is not prepared in time to showcase her skills by this worlds and fails to win the gold, she will know exactly what she needs to do in the subsequent major competitions. Under the 6.0 system, I don't think Michelle knew 100% what she was required to do to score high for the technical marks. Probably to this day she might be still wondering how specifically the judges disliked her Miraculous Mandarin. All she knew was it wasn't well-liked because of its bizzarre music. I saw MM and thought it was brilliant although my ears hurt because of the strange musical arrrangement.

As for the PCS, with Michelle's current presentation skills, it's taken care of automatically. All she needs to do is have more choreography and transitions which she used to have aplenty.
 
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