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Thread: Artistry Counts, but without the quad...

  1. #1
    ~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~ Ladskater's Avatar
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    Artistry Counts, but without the quad...

    Well Jeff Buttle laid down a great artistic short program and moved into first place without the quad, but unfortunately that extra turn in the air does make the difference as the other skaters on his heels demonstrated. Even Plushenko minus the quad struggled to keep on top.

    Even so, I am very happy for Jeff. I hope he has a great skate in the long program. I don't know if he will try to include the quad at this point. It would be great if he makes it to the podium. However, if not, I am still proud of him.

    Way to go Jeff.

  2. #2
    Always Believed! Sk8n Mama's Avatar
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    I think the judges knocked his PCS because of an early skate. IMO, JOubert is not in the same league on the PCS-Jeff was so smooth and every single element polished. The footwork with all the twizzles on one foot that maintained the flow. I think we'll have to wait and see what happens in the LP. Jeff has the quad in practice but not consistent enough for competition (remember he was doing it a few years back but it was throwing off the program?). He'll need it in Torino and I'm sure he knows it.

  3. #3
    Custom Title brad640's Avatar
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    I agree that Jeff was underscored under PCS. He was 3rd in the short, 3rd in technical, but 4th in PCS behind Lambiel (fair), Joubert (ridiculous) and Plushenko (unfair, but expected). Here are the SP marks:

    Program Compnents PCS+ SS TR PE CH IN
    1 Stephane LAMBIEL 37.72 7.61 7.36 7.61 7.50 7.64
    2 Brian JOUBERT 37.71 7.54 7.32 7.64 7.57 7.64
    3 Jeffrey BUTTLE 36.89 7.36 7.21 7.39 7.43 7.50
    4 Evan LYSACEK 34.71 6.96 6.71 7.04 7.00 7.00
    5 PLUSHENKO 38.29 7.75 7.32 7.79 7.57 7.86

    I am stunned by the PCS Joubert has received so far in this comp. In fact, his PCS was only .01 below Lambiel which is unexplainable to me seeing the way Joubert skated, with slow spins that got even slower when he went to an inside edge and simple Yagudin steps that he has been doing all season without the musicality and expression of Yagudin.

    1. Skating Skills: Overall quality of edges and flow over the ice. Plushenko was 1st followed by Lambiel and Joubert. I do not agree that Plushenko has the best edge quality, but it seems like a pretty fair result to me.

    2. Transitions: The varied movements that link all elements. Lambiel won by .04, Joubert and Plushenko tied for second. I agree with this result for Lambiel because he actually had very few transitions and moved directly from one element to another, which was amazing to see. However, Buttle should have been second.

    3. Performance/Execution: Defined by ISU as "the involvement of the skater physically, emotionally and intellectually as they translate the intent of the music and choreography" (interesting). Plushenko was 1st, Lambiel 2nd, Joubert 3rd, Buttle a distant 4th. Again I think Buttle was underscored. How the judges can say Joubert had a better emotional connection with the music is a mystery, unless they judged his roar at the end.

    4. Choreography: The arrangement of movements. Plushenko and Joubert tied for 1st! This is simply an outrage. No way is Plushenko or Joubert's choreography anywhere close to Buttle or Lambiel, but Joubert in particular had choreography that was very simple and uninspired. I don't see how the judges can call his SP the best choreography in the world.

    5. Interpretation: "the personal and creative transaltion of the music to movement on ice" including "the nuances of all the fundamentals of music." Plushenko won, Lambiel and Joubert tied for 2nd. Again, it escapes me how Joubert is judged to have better interpretation than Buttle.

    What is going on here? Could it be that the judges don't care what each PCS category means and are just giving high marks to the skaters they want to win (Plushenko, Joubert) at the expense of skaters who truly excel in the defined areas of skating (Buttle)? So far Lambiel has managed to barely stay on top because he has skated 100% and has gone for everything. However, these marks reveal that the judges are ready to forgive mistakes of their favorites and reward their mediocre skating. Sonia Banchetti revealed in her book that this type of collusion and holding up has always existed in skating, and nothing has changed under the new system.

    At this point, I see the quad being necessary for Lambiel, but not for Plushenko. If Plushenko takes out his quad and skates like he did in the qualifying, I predict he will be on top. I don't think it would be smart for Buttle to add in the quad, but I will be thrilled if he lands it and delivers the rest of the program to the high level he has all season. Right now Buttle is within 4 points of 2nd, and if judged fairly I think he could overtake Joubert for bronze, but I do not expect to see that.

    1 Stephane LAMBIEL 118.28
    2 Brian JOUBERT 112.66
    3 Evgeni PLUSHENKO 111.26
    4 Jeffrey BUTTLE 109.39
    5 Evan LYSACEK 105.55
    6 Chengjiang LI 104.84
    7 Johnny WEIR 102.70
    8 Daisuke TAKAHASHI 102.31
    9 Andrei GRIAZEV 100.23
    10 Emanuel SANDHU 97.03
    11 Frederic DAMBIER 96.58
    12 Kevin VAN DER PERREN 96.43

  4. #4
    Keeper of La Khok's Tutus Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Great analysis Brad..

    I really hope the ISU does something to re-vamp how the PCS works. But of course, addressing the judges if indeed there is corruption would be addressing the REAL problem.

    While I have never been a figure skater, only a fan, and still cannot identify certain moves.....(OK, end of disclaimer!).... I really think it's a tall order for any judge to evaluate each element for GOE, and ALSO sit back and watch the program as a whole to properly evaluate all the criteria for PCS. I know this is broken record material, but I truly hope Speedy considers splitting and specializing the panels next year.

    My fondest hope is that there is more of the "can't judge everything at once" going on than "holding up / down" going on. I know that's a big wish.

    DG

  5. #5
    Figure Skating Fan Hikaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggygirl
    I I really think it's a tall order for any judge to evaluate each element for GOE, and ALSO sit back and watch the program as a whole to properly evaluate all the criteria for PCS. I know this is broken record material, but I truly hope Speedy considers splitting and specializing the panels next year.


    DG

    DG you just remind me sopmething I read on the rules... lemme look for them again, because I knew I wanted to ask something about it, and I totally forgot.

    1.2 Off-Line Marking
    a) marking will be made with a paper version of the “Judges Marking Sheet”, one for each
    competitor.
    b) the panel is either split into “Technical Judge(s)”, with a maximum of 2 Judges and the
    “Performance Judges” with a maximum of 3 Judges. In this case the Technical Judge(s)
    identify the elements and give also the GOE, while the Performance Judges will mark only
    the Program Components. The Technical Judge or one of the btwo Technical Judges will
    act as the Referee.
    The Judges Marking Sheets need to be collected after each performance. The data are
    transferred into a computer for calculation.
    c) If a Technical Panel is in operation (Technical Specialist(s), Technical Controller) a
    communication connection needs to be in operation between the Technical panel and
    the panel of judges to make sure that the Judges, who will mark the GOE and the Program
    Components, are aware of the identified elements.
    The Judges Marking Sheets as well as the Technical Panels protocol sheet need to be collected
    after each performance. The data are transferred into a computer for calculation.
    Either there will be a Referee in place or one of the Judges act as such.
    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf


    Now what is off-line marking? has it ever been used?

  6. #6
    Keeper of La Khok's Tutus Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Interesting - You sure got me!?!

    I wonder if this is an alternate method for smaller competitions? That's a WILD guess. I have no idea. Hockeyfan, where are you??? Great question!

    DG

  7. #7
    Always Believed! Sk8n Mama's Avatar
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    What is going on here?
    Marie-Reine LeGougne-ism? Joubert's transitions and skating skills were poor, nowhere near the top 5 on those two issues alone. I can see judges thinking shaking your hips and making grandiose dramatic gestures is great interpretation because they've done it before. To me, that's Plushy all over. Choreography-wise, skating skills and transitions (and maybe I'm a little biased because I am Canadian and I've gotten to see Jeff live which really makes one appreciate his skating skills) it's ridiculous that Plushenko and Joubert even touch Jeff. Which just goes to show, CoP or not, judges can still fool witht he second mark.

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    I have to agree with all of you who've said Jeff was underscored on the PCS. I almost always find Plushenko overscored on PCS (if nothing else his choreography is often lacking compared to others, with many full rest stops accentuated by posing and overly flamboyant arm movements - though he has toned that down a bit in the last couple of years) and this competition has been no different. It's helping him hang onto the podium by his fingernails right now. And totally ITA on Joubert. It's a mystery where his huge PCS results come from in most of the categories. I don't expect every skater to be balletic (I loved Elvis Stojko) but Joubert does not have even the refinement (smooth, fabulous edges, speed, detailed choreography) that Stojko displayed. It's all about reputation, I think.There is no way on earth he is anywhere close to Buttle in most of these categories. I think the only reason Lambiel is challenging them on PCS is that there's no possible way they can deny the quality of skating he's put out there compared to the two guys behind him. But watch out if he starts to make some jump mistakes...

  9. #9
    Custom Title brad640's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rain
    I don't expect every skater to be balletic (I loved Elvis Stojko) but Joubert does not have even the refinement (smooth, fabulous edges, speed, detailed choreography) that Stojko displayed. It's all about reputation, I think.
    ITA, rain, about Stojko. Some people have said that Brian is inspired by Elvis, but I do not see that. Elvis was a true original who expanded the sport athletically and artistically. In many ways, I think Elvis inspired Yagudin to move beyond standard classical music and create unique programs based on powerful movements. Joubert is not original in any respect. Technically he tries to match everything Plushenko does (and has never succeeded that I have seen). Artistically he has copied Yagudin as everyone knows, and the results have been uninspiring. I think this is unfortunate because Joubert has the potential to take the sport in his own direction, but he seems too timid to accomplish that right now.

  10. #10
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    I read an article/interview on Brian Joubert a couple of weeks ago, in it he said he was inspired by a couple of skaters one of whom was Elvis. Why? Because he preferred the skating style of men who skated like men.

    Everyone to their own

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