Sequins and Manhood in the USA

Re: Sequins and Manhood in the USA

I think that Scott Hamilton doesn't wear sparkles and skates numbers that could be considered too showing or proving of heterosexaulity. However, IMO he is trying to breakdown the wall of the stereotype that all men who figure skate are "emotional" which IMO is a good thing. If men saw what he and others in his current tv special Scott Hamilton and Friends, they could get a good impression that not all male skaters are "emotional." I think though that if guys thought about it they could meet girls real easily if they figure skated since the ratio of girls to guys would have more girls than guys. but some skaters are trying to help change the publics opinion of guys in skating and I am all for that because, it is an image sport some what, and I think some of the male skates want the perceptions and assumptions to dissapear about boys and men who figure skate.

~Spyralz

Re: Sequins and Manhood in the USA

The intersection of sexuality and gender can be a confusing, ambiguous and controversial one. Maybe it's beyond the scope of a figure skating board, but maybe not. As we've heard from many anecdotes, the perception of manliness does affect figure skating quite a bit. My question now is, what's the quantifiable impact? Is there a shortage of men in figure skating in America? What are your personal experiences with that? Are there more girls looking for partners in dance and pairs than there are boys? If there's any shortage, what might the reasons be?

Boys in skating

Fetus, this is a good topic, and opens the doors for comparisons of cultural views of art, and cultural differences in what is perceived as sport. The gender bending aspects that can occur in skating are explainable by the interpretation of the rules being subjective without any correct answers.

As a competitor in the non-cut throat, non-endorsement seeking, truly "amateur" level of figure skating, I have explored many things on the ice over the years to many different reactions and results in many different venues in many different places. I have competed all over the states from coast to coast and most major cities, and twice in Europe---France and The Netherlands. I have done show skating here at home for 8 years. I have been on the ice with Olympic Champions and elite level skaters many times. Adult Skating is generally a supportive atmosphere, and these skaters do get involved in skating to teach others, meet others and are friendly when practicing at their home rinks. It provides opportunity to experience these things (if you pay! Skating is expensive.).

Boys in skating in the US are far outnumbered by girls. I think the ratio is maybe 10 to one in singles, and there are few boys in pairs, and even fewer in Ice Dance.

Why? Well, in the US, there is a large portion of the populace who does not find skating to be a true sport. I think it is because skating needs to be beautiful, graceful and effortless appearing. Many men in the US see sport as a demonstration of power, strength, agility, speed and freakish tricks (Extreme Sports, X Sports) and do not recognize the athleticism in dance and showmanship and dislike the subjective nature of the placements (no points to score or count). Beauty counts, even for the men, and often wins out over athleticism in skating.

In US judging, they have images of the perfect male, female and pairs skaters (in dance, who knows?). I have developed a program or two to fit this look, and these have rendered good results. They want the man to be the image of strength, speed, stamina, flow and the good technicalities of skating, with all the jumps, combinations and spins allowed at your particular level. If you demonstrate and make errors, you are still placed higher than cleaner programs skated in a different way. Balletic programs if skated with speed and power and correct line do score well. Pretty programs, lyrical programs and clean programs skated slower do not get big points, and this I know from personal experience.

This takes very good athletic ability. The US judges kind of ignore pretty skaters, they want powerful, pretty skaters. Effeminate skating can produce big points if it is presented with top speed and flow and no technical errors on the tough jumps. Without the tough jumps, big points are not often given.

In Europe, it seems beauty is appreciated more in the overall judgement of the base mark. I have done well in the European competitions because of good flow and line and positions (I had the jumps also) and speed. Pretty skaters can be given high marks more readily, it seems, and it is not embarassing to be a figure skater. In the US, the boys do get teased, and since there are not many of them, they hang out with girls all the time, which is unusual for boys who would be with many others while doing other sports. It isolates them from other boys.

In Europe there are more boys relatively, and there is more chance for them socializing (more fun for 6 - 10 year olds). Parents are not as adverse to their sons skating.

Just some random thoughts,

AS

Boys in skating

Well, you know, Grgranny has to get her jokes in. So, AS are you a pretty skater?

aww Grganny

Only when I want to be, GrGranny

AS

Re: Boys in skating

Thanks, AdultSkater, for your expert and personal insight into the matter. I knew you were good for something .

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any actual statistics on the participation of men vs. women in figure skating. Although, by anecdotal evidence and common sense, it'd seem women outnumber men vastly in the figure skating field in America. That could be a problem as men are central to 3 quarters of figure skating disciplines (to be fair, women are central to 3 quarters, too).

Re: Boys in skating

I don't have any statistics either, Fetal, but I think that the US culture affects the participation of males in figure skating much the way it does that of males in ballet or modern dance. It comes down to one word, really: Homophobia. I think your average middle class family would bend over backwards to support a daughter in figure skating. But if the 8-year-old son desperately wanted to pursue skating, I think it would be the exception rather than the rule for his family to be behind him. In the US, skating or dancing for men equals gay. I thought the anecdote about the teacher who talked to the family about the boy who did a show-and-tell on Kurt Browning was particularly revealing of the pervasive attitude. This teacher first objected because she assumed Kurt was gay, and then objected because no "normal" man would want to even be associated with a "gay" sport.

If--big if--the US is ever able to separate itself from its puritan background and traditions, only then will we start to see some changes in attitude towards men in figure skating and all the other "gay" sports and professions. In Western Europe, for the most part, homosexuality is simply more accepted. Canada has both its climate and the French to help. [Edited to add: That should read "Canada has both its cold climate to help with the popularity of figure skating in general and the French to help with the acceptance of homosexuality." This was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.] Obviously Russia and China have no problem with men in skating, but then these countries have centuries of tradition in theater and the arts.

Let's face it, the US is just very Neanderthal and puritanical when it comes to sex or anything the general populace perceives to be about sex, whether it is or not.
Rgirl

Re: Boys in skating

Quite so, Rgirl. But I didn't get the part about Canada's climate contributing to a greater acceptance of homosexuality. Do you mean because rugged men have to snuggle together against the cold of the North woods?

Interesting to contrast Russia and China. Russian does have a long tradition of men in ballet. Some are straight and some are gay and audiences don't seems to care much who is which. Certainly Mikhail Baryshnikov qualifies as an all-time stud muffin -- at least, so raves Mrs. MM.

On the other hand, the Chinese men in figure skating seem to go for macho from the get-go. Huge, manly leaps and lunges, and not very graceful at all. Like Zhang's performance in the LP at Skate America. Wonderful, but raw.

MM

Re: Boys in skating

Mathman - Read Gelsey Kirkland's book on Misha's sexual prowess. It was faster than his pirouettes. But he did indeed go through the entire ABT corps de ballet so it is said.

When you mention the Chinese boys as having super macho jumps, does that mean the American boys' jumps are less than manly?

rGirl - So true. But there was Eddie Villela at NYC Ballet who started young because his mother took him along to watch his sister take class. He became one of the best at NYCB and is now happily married with children and Director of the Miami Ballet. Like most balletomanes, it is of no interest to him whether a dancer is gay or not.

While there is some interest in whether a skater is gay or not; Lutheran or not; of Asian descent or not; the bottom line is: how important is that when he's competitng?

Joe

Re: Boys in skating

Mathman,
I meant the Canadian climate helps with the acceptance of figure skating, but the way it's written does make it sound like there is some sort of Monty Python "I'm a lumberjack" connection:lol: .

I disagree about the Chinese men being "macho." Some like Zhang and Hongbo Zao have a strongly athletic, attack style of skating. But others, such as Jian Tong, are very smooth and lyrical. I think it's just that we've only seen a few of the top Chinese in recent years. Also, the Chinese have only recently worked on developing elite skaters. Because jumps are easiest to learn from videotape and because of their already world-class men's gymnastics program, the Chinese focused on jumps first. As we saw with Shen & Zao, they were only able to advance so far with the Chinese coaches. Once S&Z worked with Leeann Miller, they made significant improvements in areas such as spins, relating to each other, musicality, etc. I've noticed that the newer pairs are already better than S&Z in these areas. Zhang comes from the "first wave" of elite Chinese skaters, which were/are quite raw. But as the Chinese skaters achieve more, they will be able to attract better coaches and choreographers to work with them, and I also think the Chinese federation and government will relax its rules on westerners working with Chinese skaters.

As for Baryshnikov's sexual appetite for women, I knew a number of dancers who were with American Ballet Theatre while Mischa was artistic director. Whether or not they participated, everyone knew Mischa was doing every other girl in the company. For straight men in dance, it can be quite the proverbial "kid in a candy store."
Rgirl

Re: Boys in skating

Joe,
Re Edward Villella: Rudy Galindo also got started in skating by going to his sister's lessons. My point was that it doesn't matter how many straight or gay men there are in dance or skating, the perception is that these are "gay" activities and gay means pervert in US culture. As the teacher in the anecdote I cited made clear, what "real man" would even want to be in a sport or profession where they would have to be around gays? Obviously this teacher is unaware that many of her male colleagues are gay.

Of course you are right when you say (as a rhetorical question) that whether or not a skater is gay makes no difference when he (or she, for that matter) is competing. But issues about homosexuality never have anything to do with a person's abilities. Homophobia and hatred of homosexuals is all about an irrational reaction to what people either don't understand or that goes against their religion. That's why I say that unless and until attitudes about homosexuality change in general that nothing is going to change the relative paucity of boys and men who participate in figure skating in the US.
Rgirl

Re: Boys in skating

Thank you for finally posting on my pet thread, Rgirl! I really wanted to hear your insight as you are someone very involved with dance.

It's interesting to contrast China with America with regards to gender construct. I'm pretty familiar with Chinese culture. After all, I did spend 14 years in Hong Kong and I read many, many books from mainland China tainted with Communist propaganda (that's another story). It is true that the Chinese have a longer and more ingrained tradition in theater compared to America. But the difference doesn't end there.

Disclaimer: The following are generalizations but I think it is true on a macro level (in other words, individual cases may vary).

In China, masculinity traditionally has been measured by one thing: how many boys can a man father. As procreation became actively discouraged by the Chinese government, and people realized having oodles of children isn't necessary to ensure a high survival rate of the litter with modern medicine, that's probably become less true.

Let's look at other facets of Chinese masculinity: Chinese people, men or women, have never been particularly warlike or aggressive. If you look at Chinese history, China has been taken over by much tinier foreign tribes several times (the Mongolians and the Manchurians being the major ones). Chinese people have been pretty passive. How else could emperor after emperor retain almost divine power over a gigantic population?

What is valued among males, on the other hand, is literacy, at least by the ancient Chinese equivalent of yuppies. If you wanted to be powerful in ancient China, you have to be a government official. And if you want to be a government official, you can either rely on family ties, or take a literacy test. Nope, kung fu doesn't even enter into it.

Let's skip a gigantic chunk of history and move on to Communism. The advent of Marxism in China, led by Mao, created some big changes in Chinese culture. The Cultural Revolution wasn't called that for nothing. The Maoist government led young people on a war on anything that was perceived to belong to "traditional society." The theater traditions definitely took a hit (refer to the film Farewell My Concubine for a crash course in this). Anything that was considered luxurious was to be excised, as they belonged to the capitalist oppressors. Homosexuality and gender bending were considered aberrations that poisoned the people's republic. Crackdowns on gay clubs and bars still happen in China, but from what I've heard, the major metropolitan areas, as they would be in other countries, are more and more accepting.

The official homophobia, though, does not translate to hostility towards figure skating. The association simply isn't there. In China, figure skating is just another sport that glorifies the motherland. This could be where the theater tradition comes in, the non-judgment towards the theatrics inherent in figure skating. That and the very mild requirements on machismo makes it easy for the Chinese sports machine, which is still going strong, to recruit future skating stars.

Back in America, one of the biggest shock I got when I first came here was how mean the athletic coaches were, at least by my tame Chinese standards. I saw a baseball coach go, "you lowly unworthy maggots!" or some such equivalent, and I thought to myself, "Americans are weird."

After spending a lot more time in the States, I've noticed that Americans place a much heavier emphasis on masculinity, the macho, rugged, emotion-repressing and violent kind of masculinity. It shouldn't be that surprising, really. America is a land created by various wars and forged in considerable hardship by pioneers. Toughness became a Darwinian mandate. That and the Puritan ethic (all work and no play makes Jesus a happy god) can create a culture with little tolerance for frills and fun.

It's interesting to note that some of the main ideals in Communism and Puritanism are identical. Luxuries are frowned upon, the communal good is considered more important than individuality, etc. But both Communism and Puritanism are both on the wane. In China, after Mao's death, the general populace no longer have the fervant desire to uphold his ideals. In fact, Chinese people these days can't wait to get rich the capitalist way. In America, I don't need to tell you how much more liberal we are towards sexuality and other no-no's of Puritanism.

Even if Puritanism is on its way out, Americans still prize that frontier toughness in men. It's up to us, the skating fans, to rescue the future of the sport from past prejudices.

Homophobia and gay men in skating

Hello Fetus, rGirl, Mathman and anyone else interested in this thread:

I did state some random thoughts earlier on this topic, specifically steering away from note or mention of sexuality or homophobia. As a gay man who has learned from several associations about both European and Chinese gay men and culture, and as a skater who has participated in straight events and openly all-gay skating events, I can comment on most of what is being said here.

However, I am going to wait to comment on homophobia in skating until you all have said most of what you would like to say about it. I am always interested in reading what straight people write about gay men. I'd like to have complete views before I start babbling about what I have experienced (some of it is good dish) as a gay man in skating.

AS

Thread

Subject line in this post is pretty vague. Not really sure how to title these random musings.

First of all, while I've mentioned having a husband several times, I don't remember mention from Mathman in the past about there being a Mrs. MM. Could he be referring to his mother? At any rate, my hopes are dashed. I've had a cyber crush for awhile because I enjoy his posts so much. <blush>. Don't take it wrong, though. I'm not the type of lady to indulge something so infantile. Just thought I'd mention it as a compliment to the subject.

The rest of this thread is one I've been following simply from curiousity. The information about attitudes in other cultures is quite enlightening. Mostly, though, it falls rather flat because I just don't get it. Am I at a distinct disadvantage in understanding this because my point of view is that of a hetrosexual female? It's an affront to my sense of power and strength to have someone call me a "sissy" but certainly not an affront to my sexuality. And calling me "butch" would just make me laugh. I manage a farm and boss around 1,000 pound pea brains, a/k/a horses. I don't think being "butch" is exactly an insult; it's more like a compliment on my abilities.

So why would a man be find it insulting to be called "gay"?

And, actually, I think it was about kindergarten that we all learned the "stick and stones" poem. Why the heck should anyone care at all if someone else calls them names? Do people really give up playing the violin or skating or whatever pursuit they love because someone called them names?

Linny

Re: Homophobia and gay men in skating

AdultSkater,

Who said we're all straight? I'm not thtraight, thankth ever tho much! Please don't hesitate to share your considerable inside info with us. You are, after all, more intimately involved with the sport we all love than most of us here. Nothing could be more relevant than your input.

I started this thread to discuss homophobia, and also misogyny in America, and how it affects skating. After reading on another thread that there is a shortage of American men in skating, and thinking back to various anecdotes, I felt I had to find out how attitudes about gender and sexuality affect skating. I think we achieved quite a bit of that .

Linny,

Once again, the macro vs. micro view comes into play. You, as an enlightened individual, are able to take attacks on your gender as compliments. Unfortunately, most people cannot. Kids will often bully other kids who fall out of the norm, and most of the time, the bullying is harmful and it gets to them.

So why is calling a man a sissy such a wounding insult in general? Good question! Let me attempt to explain it with a quote from the movie "The Cement Garden" (I'm getting it from the Madonna song that sampled the dialogue clip, really. That's how gay I am)

"Girls can wear jeans and cut their hair short, wear shirts and boots, 'cause it's okay to be a boy. But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading. Because you think being a girl is degrading."

It's just basic misogyny, with a dash of "oh my god your gender noncomformity is upsetting my rigid world views stop it stop it now." Being a woman is considered weak, which is often the synonym for the times words like "sissy" and "[word that means cat]" are used. Of course, if one is already female, and given the abundance of females in the land, most people simply learn to deal with the fact. But when a man dares to take on exclusively feminine traits, it upsets people greatly. For example, it's considered acceptable, even sexy, for women to cross dress a little. Think of pop star Avril Lavigne, who always wears a wife beater shirt with a man's tie. She's considered a major hottie. But you don't see too many male hotties running around in skirts, at least not since the 70's.

I hope that explains to you why "sissy" and its many linguistic relatives are such terrifying insults to men. Use the knowledge well:evil: .

Huh?

Kids will tease pretty much everyone. Everything and everyone is a potential target for an adoloscent. While being a member of a sexual minority may leave one open for additional cruelity, don't think that that members of the sexual majority are immune.

What's a "wife beater" shirt? Got a link to a picture of one?

Back to skating. The man I met back when I roller skated was outnumbered by woman at the rinks by about 10 to 1. Add to that the fact that he actually skated quite well, and you have a lot of competition to become his dance partner. Luckily, he was immune to it all. He honestly only wanted to skate with someone he had more in common with than the physical attributes that make a dance couple look good together (a good skill level and good size match). As it turned out, he was attracted to me in more ways than one. We rarely skate anymore, but our relationship endures. Call me very lucky.

Linny

Fetal Dahlink

Hello Developing Zygote:

I never said all posters were straight, I said that I like to read what straight people have to say about gay men (and lesbians, and transexuals, and bisexuals and leather guys and skating and practically anything except politics, which makes me uncomfortable because to be poltical means taking sides or some such psychodribble).

Fetal, I would not post on a board about skating without expecting some other gay man (lesbians are pretty rare in skating, actually---I know 2 and have met about 6) to post. I have skated with drag queens who skate (not for the sport, but to be drag queens on the ice) for exhibitions and Gay Games (going on right now in Sydney) and skated with the scope of sexuality seen in skating being presented in some way. The skaters are a very diverse group in the adult world with people coming from all walks of life. There are so many gays that many aspects of the gay subcultures have participants (fembots, leather, levis, jock, guppie, etc.).

That could take forever to discuss in terms of anecdotes....forever!

To be honest, I agree with Rudy Galindo's views on skating judging to some degree. The US judges have the image they want to see of the male figure skater....athletic, strong lines with fewer curves of the body, deep edges, speed, jumps, fast spins, held landings and flow.

They want power skating. Todd Eldridge spent his competitive career developing this style for competition. He is the best if he had the quads---you need two---at this style. Easy to judge the power, easy to count the jumps, easy to appreciate the spins and footwork....easy to judge.

Pretty skating without speed and flow simply doesn't get the marks. The view is that beauty is needed in skating and beautiful movement by men is done by many gay men indirectly brings in homophobia.

Skating should be beautiful....flowy, effeminate and other beautiful moves and affectations are not forbidden by the rules, and are beautiful....many gay skaters are not afraid to be beautiful out there...there is homophobia---it translates onto the beauty to some degree. The hatred of Mishin's choreography by many is based in being homophobic, IMHO, by many---the posts prove that (on many boards), but I think the negative response is an indirect one...if you see beauty in movement by a man and think that man must be gay because he is beautiful, and you are homophobic, you will dislike and be fearful of the beauty.

Odd transition, but I hope you follow me on this one

The system doesn't reward this type of skating. In response to a program I did once in a rural area which emphasized line and flow and emotion, I asked why I was scored so low, and was told by the national/sectional level judges that I should skate a less "lady-like" program. It was the last time I attempted to develop that style of skating for competitions. It's power skating for me now....they demand athleticism.

To be beautiful gains audience appeal, but not judging appeal unless you skate totally all out doing it, showing the power and speed, and you must do all the elements, without error. Then they can't deny you the marks.

More thoughts later if you like.

AS

Re: Thread

Linny -

Order of preference for a promotion in a job situation:

l. good looking guys with a degree
2. good looking guys without a degree
3. average looking guys with an extremely high degree
4. Being in the right spot at the right time

The not so lucky:

1. Unmarried guys
2. Guys who don't date gals
3. fat guys
4. Boring guys (can't talk team sports)
5. effeminate guys

Should the above matter? - NO. Does it? YES

Do figures skating judges think the same way?

Joe

Re: Thread

From all this discussion, I have decided I am not homo-
phobic. I love to see the guys that skate "pretty". Mostly, it is the ones who have been or would be dancers. And most of them are certainly straight.
Everyone has to make up their own mind about what kind of person they want to be. If their homones are messed up, I think it is very sad. Of course, there are those who just decide it. I know most of the people in my Church think there isn't such a thing as the "messed up hormones" but to me it usually quite obvious. Whether they decide to have "relationships" is another story. I will have to say, I believe no one should have that kind of "relationship" unless they are married so those that do, it doesn't matter whether you are homosexual or straight, the same law affects them. That is my belief and whatever they do, is their business, not mine. I am not the judge. Thank goodness.
I will have to tell you a funny. When we were doing craft shows there were two guys who came together. They were really nice. We both liked them a lot. Then, one time one of them came separately and bought the other one a bracelet. Only then did we realize they weren't just friends. The really funny part was we went to eat at a restaurant with one of them and I was a little hesitant for him to sit by my husband. Well, I am not quite so naive now but to me I thought it was pretty funny.
So, I guess what I am saying is they are people just like the rest of us and what they do is none of my business.
Sure hope this doesn't make anyone upset, I don't mean for it to. It is just my opinion.

Re: homophobia

Linny -- Well, *blush* back to ya.

Adult Skater -- You asked for a response by heterosexuals on the subject of homophobia. I am a straight man, happily married, blessed with one surviving son and one new grandson. Here is what I think about homophobia (which I understand in the sense of hatred and fear of homosexuals and homosexuality): I hate it.

Fetal Attraction: Fascinating point about homophobia as an aspect of misogyny (hatred of and contempt for women). I never thought of it that way. But now that you put it like that, it makes a lot of sense. Here’s what I think about misogyny: I hate it.

But having said that, I also have to admit that I do treat women differently from men. Any damsel in distress can ring my chimes and make me dash off all stupid and chivalrous. On figure skating boards, whenever a lady skater is bashed, I’ll be the first to jump to her defense. The men? Hey, they’re big boys, they can take care of themselves.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>“When you mention the Chinese boys as having super macho jumps, does that mean the American boys' jumps are less than manly?” -- Joe[/quote]

Joe -- Your question, and Adult Skater’s elaboration of it, above, has made me think harder about what I DO mean. By a macho jump I guess I meant a clumsy bull-in-the-china-shop one. How John Wayne would skate, if John Wayne could skate. The contrast would be with a Todd Eldredge jump -- elegant and graceful, without giving up anything in terms of speed and power. The next step would be Anton Sikharulidze -- mesmerizing in his gracefulness, but we can forgive him because he’s Russian. I don’t agree with Adult Skater that figure skating judges prefer the style of Zhang, or of Hongbo Jiao, to that of an Eldredge or a Sikharulidze.

By the way, one of the most graceful athletes I ever saw was Wilt Chamberlain. It was simply astonishing that a man that big could move with such ease and fluidity. (By the way, Wilt the Stilt claimed in his autobiography that he had had sex with 20,000 women.

Let’s see, 20,000 days is 54.8 years, say from age 15 to 70...)

Mathman