Sequins and Manhood in the USA

Re: Thread

Grgranny. The subject of gay man has come up a couple of times with my tough inner city college students and always there is some male who professes to being uptight around gay men because he is afraid they will come on to him. My response is to ask if every woman he comes in contact with comes on to him or indicates an attraction. The student gets the point.

Everyone else. I am basically gay though I have a history of dating and liking women. The first time I saw two men making out in a bar, I nearly tossed my cookies. And I WAS interested in men at the time, at least in my head. I also reacted, though not as strongly, when I first witnessed interracial dating. I think it's all about image and what we are used to. Isn't that what Madonna was into challenging (beside her debts)? When I watch Johny Weir, I find his style feminine but I enjoy him because he is quite lyrical. I also loved Elvis' skating. I hope JW doesn't change his style but I do hope he expands his options. I studied modern afro dance years ago and then added ballet and modern to give my muscle memory more potenial for expression. Then I took up karate to expand even more. If I were on speaking terms with JW, I would suggest a little karate.
Adult Skater, thanks for your honesty, not to mention your skating insights in general. Rgirl, you are wise beyond your years, whatever they might be.
Yelyoh

Re: Thread

Joe,
I would add height to your preference list.
yelyoh

Re: Thread

Linny,

A wife beater is a man's undershirt that looks something like a tank top but with much larger openings for the neck and arms (think Stanley in A Streetcar Named Desire). The name comes form the stereotype of beer drinking, wife beating men who wear shirts like that as outerwear. They are very popular for teenagers right now. I cringe whenever I hear them mentioned.

Piel

Re: homophobia

Mathman,

I didn't mean to say that homophobia is an aspect of misogyny, I meant to say that both homophobia and misogyny comes into play in prohibitive ways for figure skating men. Though certainly, there are links between homophobia and misogyny, which you got me into thinking about.

Let me try to first explain the distinction. For instance, homophobia directed at men could manifest in hatred of men who sleep with each other, no matter how butch they are. Misogyny, when directed at men (yes, it can happen), could manifest in hatred of men who take on traits deemed to be exclusively feminine.

Of course, the link between homophobia and misogyny comes in because being attracted to men is deemed an exclusively female trait, and homosexual men are stereotyped to take up various feminine traits.

I don't want to turn this into a gender studies class (too late for that!), but homophobia can be a displaced form of misogyny: The homophobe disparages various feminine traits, but is forced to live with them in women (after all, there are a lot of them), so s/he directs to the relative minority of men who take on those traits.

One more thing, Mathman, chivalry is not the same as misogyny. It'd be lunacy to think that men and women are the same in every area. Women typically are physically weaker, it's ok to want to help them out. Misogyny is when one despises the feminine distinctions, not when one merely acknowledges them.

Request

Mathman, hello:

I simply said I like reading what straight people say about gay men and lesbians. I didn't request anything. I prefer to read the unsolicited and like it a bit better.

American society is passive-aggressive in a lot of its homophobia, racism, sexism and all the prejudices and -isms. We have laws protecting rights and a diverse enough population to support nearly any group's fight and achievement of civil rites.

Homosexuality isn't criminal in most of the US, but people still fear, hate and avoid it, and people certainly don't ever wish their children to grow up and be gay. Tolerance is the best that this society can offer to homosexuals. Certainly not adoration. Certainly not appreciation for being good citizens (as a group). Certainly not taken seriously. Certainly not.

Beauty and grace are thought of as feminine here, so if exhibited by a man, are considered gay in this setting. This is different in other societies, and I am thankful for that.

Diversity is interesting.

AS

Re: And now the *femme* POV

How about the ladies...

The idea is that women are *fine* with figure skating because they don't have to question their womanhood :lol: :lol: .

I wonder if people have noticed these when watching ladies skating:

- pretty young ladies(not yet women) wearing very revealing dresses(low front or back and very short costumes) and make-up(like the grownups)

- all kinds of gynaecological positions...some of which the o.b will never want to see in the examination room!

- china dolls smiling and looking pretty etc.

Imo, the ladies don't need to do this to skate. They can skate without having to use their feminity to draw crowd interest and popularity. Or is there a disagreement...

Re: And now the *femme* POV

Bleu,

That is a problem that women in skating have to fit certain stereotypes to be accepted. However, the shortage in America is on the male side of skating, and it's a big problem. This is why I started this thread to address the problems of gender perceptions and men in skating.

Re: And now the *femme* POV

rgirl - regarding that Canadian reference...

Not too sure what they(law or media) are telling you down there about Canada. It is surely much interesting than the latest new laws on crossing the borders between Canada and the USA!

You wrote in one sentence - hockey + homosexuality + winter + Canada...

hockey + winter = Canada. But since when did homosexuality become a canadianesis....

P.S - this post is not a putdown of homosexuality. It is just a question for Rgirl.

Re: And now the *femme* POV

Adult Skater, I had one more question which I forgot in my last post. I am not up on the various subcultures within the gay community, but I wondered if this has its counterpart in skating. Is Elvis Stoiko, for instance, an example of "leather" skating?

Bleuchick, ITA. I think that underaged girl skaters should compete in black unisex leotards over tights and be judged on their skating alone, not by how much they can look like Jon Bonet Ramsey.

Mathman

Re: And now the *femme* POV

No one is answering my question: Does being gay hurt your chances of getting a good score in competition. (No reference to Rudy, please!)

In other words, would you skate as openly gay or closeted if you were a favorite for gold in the Olys?

Kpe

Out on the ice

According to Rainbow Ice, only two elite skaters came out during their amateur careers: Matthew Hall of Canada and Rudy Galindo of America (Sorry, Joe, Rudy has to be mentioned because he's 50% of what you're asking about). I don't recall Matthew doing well in anything at all, but his career was plagued by injuries and falls. I think we all know the fairytale-like story (pun intended) of Rudy. So based on extremely limited and thus unreliable evidence, being an openly gay skater does not hurt in the scoring department. Only with time and more openly gay elite skaters can you get a definite answer.

Re: Out on the ice

Sorry, Joe - gotta bring Rudy into this discussion, too.

At one point in his career, Rudy blamed homophobia for his scores. Later on he admitted that he was using that as an excuse for poor training habits (i.e. too much partying, etc.).

I don't think that being openly gay harms scoring. I do think that being openly gay damages earnings potentials and sponsorship. Male skaters do not have the same endorsement opportunities as the ladies and, unfortunately, being openly gay would probably eliminate the few available to men.

More than just blue suede shoes

Mathman,

I dug around on some Elvis fan sites, and lo and behold, the guy really does like to wear leather. That pretty much qualifies him as being representative, at least in costume, of the leather community. Whether he plays bondage/domination/sadomasochism with other men is another matter. I think he'd like to spank a few Olympic judges, at least .

More than just blue suede shoes

So are you saying Elvis is gay? I had never heard or even thought of that.

Re: More than just blue suede shoes

to Jositz, I do believe that many openly gay skaters have felt that their chances at being rated as top ranked elite athletes were hurt as a consequence of not choosing to hide their sexuality. Scott Hamilton says in his book that much of his behavior ( hard drinking and womanizing) was done to disprove the idea that he was in anyway gay. Even the most elite and well respected male skaters attempt to remain closeted for popularity and earnings reasons. When Brian Orser was "outed" by a palimony suit, he was reluctant to talk about it and seemed to shy away from the subject. His continued success as a show skaters has largely been because he endeared himself as a world class athlete long before the world knew him as a gay man.
One reason that so many gay men choose skating and that the numbers are disproportionately high (compared to other sports) is that it is an individual sport for which you are solely responsible for the level of your own performance. Yes, others contribute, but ultimately, it is the individual, the skates, and the ice. As for the lack of heterosexual men in the sport, that is more complex. First, sport is usually a "team" concept where even the most individualistic sports such as diving, skiing, speed skating, etc... are learned and practiced in groups. Second, sport is traditionally a man's domain. Women in sport has been the exception rather than the rule up until the last 25 years or so. There are no shortage of choices for men to make and often times men choose sports that "dovetail" from season to season. It wasn't uncommon for really talented athletes in my high school to go from football, to basketball, to baseball without interruption.
Third, sports are a proving ground. The very things we reward and admire as masculine i.e. aggressiveness, ambition, bravura and self-reliance and confidence are almost always found on a mans playing field and are celebrated there. Men feel that it is a place where "banging each other around" physically is accepted and appreciated.
None of this fits in with the rarified world of figure skating. It took years for Tennis to be accepted as a "masculine" sport. If you notice there is a similarity of both originating from the wealthy chassises. Even on the courts I recall the great Arthur Ashe said that though it was common to find lesbians on the women's circuit a guy would be run out of the locker room if he were suspected of being gay. In fact, women also have a perception problem if they are too good or devote too much time to sports where they excel. Many a fine woman athlete has been turned off of sport by the comment about her sexuality. Fetal has it right, misogyny and homophobia go hand in hand and do affect perception of performance. How many women do you think would win the world championships if they could do quad-triple combos but skated like Elvis Stoiko? I think you could count them on both hands and never take either one off the keyboard. There have been some spectacular men skaters that I am pretty sure were gay, however as long as they "played the game" and kept quiet, their secrecy was rewarded with higher marks. Even then, though, men who are known to be heterosexuals often reap the benefit of that perception in competitions. And it gets worse....many gay men are the most homophobic folks of all. I have heard gay men say things like " I wish Rudy Galindo wouldn't be so flamboyant, he gives us all a bad name." I hope Rudy has the sensitivity to cry all the way to the bank! Remember, we are the lovers of this sport, most men have no vested interest in changing their minds about figure skating in America. To many of them they are just another group of people they can stereotype and hold up to ridicule to bolster their own insecurity about their masculinity. Now I know this isn't always true and I'm not talking about all men, but until we are willing to take a stand and teach tolerance to our youngest children, I think it will remain a huge factor on how many young North American men go into and stay with figure skating. It's just to easy to not even try.

Elvis

Stojko could be a levis type of style. The tight faded blue jeans and a tight white tee shirt is part of the "uniform".

AS

Re: Are the judges against gay skaters?

Hi Sk8m8. Very good paper on the subject of the affects of being a gay skater on the judges. I think it should be put in a skating magazine as an article. You seem to believe, as I do, that it does have an effect.

From my limited knowledge of psyschology (not much more than 101) the subject of team vs. individual sports does come up. Team members have an easier time with social interraction on and off the field (locker room antics to dating the opposite sex). Individual sportspersons are out to prove they are special (must have the win and a disinterest in others).

I believe gay men and women can fall into either of the above categories depending on how the early years of nurturing and parenting turned out. (Low self-esteem, imo, is the problem, one doesn't have to be gay to have it. Disappointing one's parents is much more of a gay 'problem' than 'coming out' is.

Behaviour is at the forefront of figuring out the personality of anyone. Much of what has been said by the posters is quite valid, imo. But I am not convinced, as Scot Hamilton is, that openly gay skaters do not have an effect on the judges.

Then, there is the question of 'gay' judges. Do they look upon gay skaters with disdaiin (self-hate)? or do they look upon gay skaters in the modern context as 'gay rights'? (Oooh, the subjectivity of figure skating!)

Joesitz

Re: Are the judges against gay skaters?

To me a skating fan, sexual orientation doesn't matter to me. I have a diverse list of favorite skaters. What matters to me is:
1. If they are good at what they do, skating
2. If they have a good personality and are polite in interviews, or you get a feeling from them that they are a normal person like you, who just happens to be very good at figure skating.
3. bring something special to the ice (choreography, jumps, spins, footwork, personality,individuality,etc.)

On my favorite figure skaters list John Curry is very high on that list. he skated quite a few years before I was born, I have only seen him on my magic memories on ice I tape but, his olympic performance is very enjoyable and breathtaking to watch, the creativity and personality and individuality he brought to the ice is incredible. he died of aids and was gay, but that does not change how I view him differently. He was an incredible skater and an artist on ice. If you were to look up the definition in the dictionary (if such a definition exists)of artist on ice, IMO you would see John Curry's picture.

~Spyralz

Re: Are the judges against gay skaters?

Awesome thread!

With regard to women fitting a stereo-type [china doll, dainty, elegant, etc....] Didn't Tonya Harding often complain that she was treated differently by the USFSA because she didn't fit the mold? Tonya's style, I think, appeared much more "masculine" than others at the time. She had more "power" in her skating than many men at the time. And she didn't exactly have model looks. Nor a "Puritan" family background.

I think Tonya as an example supports what others have already said. Or maybe I need another Diet Coke.

Regarding the sequins... I often find myself explaining to my husband [former rugby player] why "so and so" is NOT gay just because he "looks" gay to hubby. For example, he doesn't care that Michael Weiss is married with children. He's convinced he's gay. To note, his favorite skaters, are Elvis and Todd. [ If he had to pick.]

Fetal- If I may ask, what do you do for a living? I am fascinated with your posts and you have an incredible way of getting me [and I assume others based on the length of this thread] to think about things from a perspective I never considered.

Re: Are the judges against gay skaters?

MMM,

Thanks for the compliments! I'm just a lowly unemployed musician (I sing, I compose, and I'm learning the guitar). I'm very much a sociologist at heart which is why I started this thread, to examine social trends from the microcosm of figure skating.

Tonya Harding is definitely an interesting example of gender noncomformity in female skaters. It's hard to say that her disappointments in figure skating are due purely to one factor or another, as she had quite a lot going on. She had "issues." Are there other elite female skaters that are more manly than most? I can't think of any.

Let's face it, figure skating has/requires a lot of daintiness, in that there's a huge emphasis on having a balletic style. However, I've never associated ballet with girliness. It always looked like torture for the sake of aesthetics. I'm not quite sure when cultural paradigms shifted to the point where ballet is looked upon as feminine. Perhaps one of you dance fans out there can enlighten us.

P.S. Since I'm not really into roughhousing with a kung fu expert, let me just clarify that I'm not suggesting Elvis Stojko is gay. It's just a fact that the guy wears a lot of leather, not that there's anything wrong with that.