Sequins and Manhood in the USA

Re: The Early Morning Post

How about that! Unless someone sneaked in, I got the 100th post. Now as Joe says, It's the end.

One last thing

Before we leave this thread to the dust of time, may I suggest one more thing? I think we established that there's a sizable shortage of male figure skaters in America, and that's going to hinder 3 out of the 4 skating disciplines. I know we measely citizens can only do so much to remedy the situation. But let's take Princess Leppad for an excellent example, she's doing her little bit to help by encouraging the kids at her skating rink and defending them from bullies. I think as skating fans, we should cheer on all skaters, male or female, who work hard on the sport.

After this little sociological thread, I think I will start one about the difference financial status makes for aspiring figure skaters. Thanks for your contributions to this thread!

Re: One last thing

I just spent twenty minutes reading this thread from beginning to end........extremely informative and well represented......A+..........42

Sequins and Manhood.....

Interesting Topic.....

In response to the comments about it not being so bad up here in Canada, unfortunately I have to disagree Bleu.

I think it is disgusting the stereotypes young men have to put up with when they skate. IMO they should all receive Olympic Gold just for sticking it out.

As Registration Chairperson for a figure skating club, it is appalling the parents reactions when they enroll their child. Now, unfortunately, if these poor boys have to endure it at home from the people who love them most....

It is astounding to me the parents that come to registration and want to know "Do they have to wear Figure Skates?" My general response to this question is "They can wear what they are most comfortable with, but if they progress to test leves, figure skates will become necessary." Guess what the #1 response is? "Well that won't happen, because there is no way my son is wearing Figure Skates." (Keep in mind the words Figure Skates is spoken as if it is the nastiest word on the planet)

Our club has two male skaters in the test program. One is 9 years old, and only joined because his parents hope the fact that this club is 2 hours away from their home will aleviate some of what he has had to endure. There are approximately 6 clubs that are within 20 minutes of their home, but they have tried them all, and without fail, the poor kid endures garbage that NO ONE should have to endure.

As for the other male skater, he is 15, very talented, and quite honestly, thanks to the support of his parents and the club coach, has managed to stick it out regardless of the ribbing and teasing at school and elsewhere. He happens to have a twin brother who plays hockey, and well, I am pretty sure you can guess who gets the dates in that house.

Personally, it is a sad state. And as awful as it may sound, honestly, thank goodness my son has noooo coordination WHATSOEVER and has no interest in skating. If he did, he would get our support 200 percent, but as sad as it sounds, it is just as well that he doesn't skate. He is a very sensitive child, and I know that even if he loved the sport, no amount of support from us and a coach could EVER overshadow what he would endure from classmates.

I just wish that a magic wand could be waved, and for all the negativity to be gone. It is my opinion that the numbers of male skaters would increase drastically if not for the fear of the endless teasing and stereotyping they would endure. The ones who stick it out are obviously very strong personalities and I think they set an AWESOME example for all skaters. They should be proud of themselves.

Now if only the public could recognize it.

Re: Sequins and Manhood.....

Some had thought back in 1992 that Kristi would have trouble even though she won the gold in the olympics, getting endorsements and obviously her japanese heritage and appearance have not kept her from skating in many shows, tours, competitions, etc. and getting lots of endorsements and winning awards. She has always been one of my favorite skaters and I think she is a great role model for all girls of all backgrounds and different decents.

~Spyralz

Re: For Bleuchick

The question you had about my post and the sentence about Canada can be answered simply as follows: Bad writing on my part!

Once Mathman brought that lame sentence to my attention (ie, "I didn't get the part about Canada's climate contributing to a greater acceptance of homosexuality. Do you mean because rugged men have to snuggle together against the cold of the North woods?"), I edited that section to read: "In Western Europe, for the most part, homosexuality is simply more accepted. Canada has both its climate and the French to help. [Edited to add: That should read "Canada has both its cold climate to help with the popularity of figure skating in general and the French to help with the acceptance of homosexuality." This was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.] Obviously Russia and China have no problem with men in skating, but then these countries have centuries of tradition in theater and the arts."

My response to Mathman was:
"I meant the Canadian climate helps with the acceptance of figure skating, but the way it's written does make it sound like there is some sort of Monty Python "I'm a lumberjack" connection."

So, cold much of the year + lots of ice = Canada and/or great conditions for skating.

Posting + Being tired + Being Rgirl = Lame-O sentences

And since I don't have another gnarly photo of Rgirl with some famous skater to send to Grgranny for her prize of being the 100th poster on this thread, how about if we all join in for a rendition of "I'm a Lumberjack."

I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay/ I sleep all night and I work all day.
I'm making up this next verse/ 'Cause I can't remember the song.

Oh...
I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay/ I sleep all night and I work all day.
I put on women's panties/ And I run around in drag.

Anybody else who remembers this Monty Python song can add the other verses. I think "I'm a Lumberjack" pretty well sums up all the views presented on this thread
Rgirl

Re: One last thing

Fetal,
So many boffo posts! Such a great thread! Thank YOU, Fetal, for starting it. But this is why I hate real life sometimes. A thread like this comes along and real life gets in the way, preventing Rgirl from writing 15 or 20 overly long, repetitive posts and getting in some naughty dance anecdotes. Plus, of all times to lose my ability to private message people and get the "not suitable for board publication" dirt!

Seriously, I hadn't checked the board in a week and just spent the last hour reading this thread. Besides you, Sk8m8, DorisPulaski, AdultSkater, Mathman, Grgranny, Joe, and, heck, almost everybody, wrote posts that I would both publish and pay for--if I had a publishing company and the money. As you say, we measely citizens can only do our small part, but I would publish them in Volume one, number one of "Journal of the Sociosexualpolitical Aspects of Figure Skating."

And thanks for having me on your thread I especially liked your post on Chinese vs. American ideas of masculinity. First gays in skating, then "What do skaters wear under their costumes?" What will show up on GS next! Onward into the ever deeper nether regions of figure skating forumdom.
Rgirl

PS to Joe: To address your question: Yes, I think being an openly gay male in competitive figure skating hurts one's marks. We may think that today, since Rudi came out, it wouldn't matter as much. And perhaps things are better for those skaters who are in the top 10 at Nationals. But I think AdultSkater's experiences are more accurately reflective of the views and biases at the regional level.

Re: One last thing

rgirl - now I get it.

sk8tngcanuck - I am sorry if I sounded too optimistic. My bad. I just wanted to say there is always hockey. After reading your post it looks like we do have a problem with or without a bait(hockey).

Re: One last thing

This thread wont quit. Homesexuality is the only topic that can get more responses than a topic on Michelle Kwan. Why?

Joe

Re: One last thing

Joe,

This thread isn't just about homosexuality, not that there's anything wrong with that . It's about a fairly serious problem in America's figure skating today. The bottom line is we in America need more male skaters. It will go a long way into securing future victories for Uncle Sam, and what would be more important than America winning ("America you so fine, you so fine you blow my mind, go America!"~Bart Simpson")? Besides that, we as skating fans are missing out on a huge pool of talent. America has the most resources for cultivating future skating stars, so why aren't we training more guys? Don't you enjoy seeing new, spectaculous skaters take the ice?

Re: One last thing

Rgirl,

You won't believe this! As I was reading your post earlier this evening (6:22 pm to be exact) our sportscaster was talking about a local lumberjack contest of some kind that is going on this week and he started singing the Monty Python Lumberjack song. How weird is that and how slow of a news week is it here? By the way, our guy sings even worse than Dick. Will try to e-mail you later to catch up.


Joe,

Sorry to add to this thread. May it rest in peace.


Piel

Sequins & Manhood in the USA

I just have to say, Rgirl, that I knew what you meant about cold Canada when I read it.

Everything Zen

Joe -

I'm not sure why you're alarmed. If an anti-gay/pro-gay flame war had erupted, I could understand concern, but the thread has remained, for the most part, positive throughout. We should be thankful, that doesn't occur too often on the 'net!

Proportions

Hmmmmm Joesitz, let me see....a 27,578 posts about Michelle to 114 post about men in skating in america and some of them gay. Without consulting mathman that's just shy of 30K for One skater (though she is beloved by many) to (at a modest estimate of 5% of the North American Population) (350Mil*.05= 17.5 Mil) plus the 85 straight male skaters....sounds like a fair deal to me
Yours in Wisenhiemerism,
sk8m8

Re: Everything Zen

Kinder - No alarm. When there is a connection with figure skating it is perfectly in line with the GS forum whose purpose is to discuss all aspects of figure skating. I just didn't want to see it drift into a homosexual forum for which there are a number of sites to discuss only that subject including our own Le Cafe.

Joe

Enduring

Hello to all---

I now have to jump in here to give a brief report of what I have encountered at my local rinks while skating. As all of you know, I was a fully grown man when I started skating in my 30's. I skate private sessions, free style sessions and public ice sessions. Many times, the hockey players are getting off their sessions or waiting to get on when the figure skaters finish.

Firstly, let me say that the mold and mildew that grows inside hockey player's equipment from the sweat never drying out makes them STINK, SMELL BAD and their aroma is PUTRID. You can smell a hockey player from a mile away as soon as they open their bags. Hockey players smell bad....well, their equipment does. The stench can permeate the rink.

That said, I can say that often the hockey players watch as they get on/off the ice, the tricks we figure skaters do, and they also are impressed with speed. They also talk amongst themselves, and often I could hear what they are saying as I pass by or am trying to remove my skates (holding my breath because of the stench)....

"oooooo look at Cinderella out there...."
"oooooo isn't HE the pretty one..."
"look at the jumps! but he must be a f*g"
"wow....he goes fast! but I could never skate like that f*g does..."

etc.....

In fact, at one public rink where I did skate for a few years, "Cinderella" became my nickname, as hockey was a more prevalent sport at the rink. It hurt, still hurts, and I left that rink because of it. Even racing the hockey players in drills (and winning!!!!) and jumping circles around them in pick-up hockey games (and scoring goals---I love hockey, but could never play due to the stench) didn't stop the ribbing I received.

If this kind of stuff happens to me, at my advanced age, imagine the effect on the self esteem of ANY boy----straight or gay (at that early age---who knows???? these are young kids who don't deserve this kind of problem) who can be involved in skating. Parents would naturally try to protect their sons from the ribbing, it's natural. The best protection is to not nurture a boy's desire to figure skate and steer them to other sports, team sports, etc.

Figure skating as a sport has somehow, in some western cultures, been equated with male homosexuality. It is for this reason that homophobia surfaces. I don't know why FS by men has become equated with being gay, and I have no answer. But this is the main question posed here in this thread..."why is FS by men seen as something only gay men would do?"

The debate has been stimulating and very well done, and that's the reason I post here on GS. Thanks Fetal

AS

Fight the real enemy: Hockey

AdultSkater,

I have a confession to make: I partly started this thread because of you. You complained about the lack of substantive discussion on this board on your comeback post, and I concurred. So I decided to do something about it and started this thread, which is about a topic I've always thought deserved in-depth discussion. You can thank yourself for this thread .

As I was saying in the subject of this thread, "Fight the real enemy!" *Rips up a picture of Wayne Gretzky* By virtue (or vice) of using the same arena for practicing, hockey and figure skating has a lot of friction. And ya know what? I blame the hockey players. Just read through this thread and you'll see tale after tale of boys who want nothing more than to excel at the sport and art of figure skating tormented by hockey players. This is where any and all adults around the rink should take charge. Children need supervision and protection, even if it's not for the sake of figure skating that we love so much. Now I'm not saying all hockey players are smelly bullies rollin: @ Adult's recollection of hockey smells), I'm just saying most of them are evil:evil: .

As for why figure skating is equated with homosexuality, at least in America, the short, but probably true answer is, figure skating is equated with femininity is equated with homosexuality. And in this country, femininity is judged with especially harsh standards. Anything slightly short of the extreme machoness inherent in American culture is considered feminine. Back in Hong Kong, where every yuppie kid is made to play either the piano or violin, artistic endeavors, the structured, traditional kind, is greatly encouraged. The attitude in America is shockingly different for this stranger in a strange land. Of course, there's plenty more I like about American culture. Americans fiercely believe in individuality and the freedom that allows it, these are the same values that must be stressed and imparted upon male figure skaters so that the sport may thrive.

Re: Adult Stupervision

Fetal,
Considering the behavior of supervising parents and coaches in sports--ie, coach of opposing team who tackled an 8-year-old Pee Wee League football player because he had recovered his team's fumble and was running toward the goal; father who beat another father to death over kid's game (forget if it was baseball or hockey)--I don't know that adult supervision is going to help figure skaters who are harrassed by hockey players. The adults may be doing some of the worst name-calling. Also, hockey players have the mob-mentality of the team behind them. Plus they carry big sticks. Not to mention that apparently they use their odor as some sort of territorial marker. But there must be something in those hockey-player pheromones--Kristi and Michelle sure like 'em:smokin:
Rgirl

Re: Why?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>This thread wont quit. Homesexuality is the only topic that can get more responses than a topic on Michelle Kwan. Why?[/quote]
Joe, I believe Fetal answered this question last year when he informed us that Michelle Kwan was in fact a man
Rgirl

Re: Adult Stupervision

Rgirl,

:rollin: about Kwan-man

You are right that adults involved with a lot of children's sports are irrational. The dad who beat another dad to death in front of their kids did it over hockey. Recently in Canada, a father is suing some league for not awarding his son the M.V.P. trophy. The behavior of a lot of jock parents in North America (possibly elsewhere, too) is obscene. But, as usual, I have a wily solution. We just need nasty, violent parents like that to protect the figure skating boys. They can yell and throw fits at anyone taunting their precious children. And voila! Problem solved! (Lawsuits to come later)