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Thread: Interesting Hersch article in the aftermath of Worlds

  1. #1
    Woman of the Waters
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    Interesting Hersch article in the aftermath of Worlds

    http://chicagosports.chicagotribune....ck=1&cset=true

    Has some noteworthy mentions, some of which are:

    It is ridiculous a triple toe loop jump cleanly executed can be worth fewer points than a triple axel jump with a fall on the landing. It makes sense to have a system so complicated it should defy efforts to cut the deals that have damaged the sport's credibility for decades.
    The system clearly is a work in progress with inconsistencies, which makes it somewhat disconcerting to have it already used in major events like last week's world championships--and the 2006 Winter Olympics. Its current incarnation still leaves judges many ways to beat the objective of trying to prevent judging by reputation rather than performance.
    And here's one about Kwan:
    Kwan found out she no longer can make a big impression simply with the pure beauty of her edging--how the blades move across the ice--when it is added to solid jumps, captivating spirals and occasionally competent spins.

    Kwan revealed herself to be a quick study by immediately finding one of the system's flaws. In assessing level of difficulty from 1 to 3 for spins and footwork, which becomes an important factor in the score, a poor quality of execution does not lower the level and does not have enough impact on the mark.

    Kwan always has been too much of a competitor to back down from a challenge, but this is a formidable one. The new system forces her to redefine herself athletically the way she did artistically at 15, when the kid in the ponytail turned into a young woman who could be a sophisticated Salome on ice--and do seven triple jumps.

    "I have to put my back against the wall and do it," Kwan said. "That's what they are asking for, and that's what I have to do."

  2. #2
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Kuchana - Thanks for the heads up on this article.

    It's good to have this type of critique of the CoP published by a journalist who knows his figure skating, and we know his articles will be ready by the powers that be.

    His pointing out that a perfectly clean triple loop should register lower points than a fall on a triple axel is mind boggling for me and it certainly is ridiculous. This would never work in other sports. IMO, the competition should be judged on what a skater actually performs, and not what was attempted. If we are ever going to get away from the 'little girl sport' syndrome we have to stop pussyfooting the elements.

    I agree with Hersch that the system should not have been rushed into the Worlds. I would have liked to have seen it really modified after 3 years of being used soley in the Grand Prix Series.

    As for Kwan, well, she should know better by now.

    Hopefully more GS members will comment on the element attempts and the 'rush to use the CoP'.

    Joe

  3. #3
    Hopeless fan Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Weighing in...

    I don't have time right now to read the whole article, but I will. Just a couple preliminary comments on the quotes.

    I personally think the "was COP rushed in" could be debated in different ways. This type of change is going to be challenging for all concerned (skaters, judges, coaches, etc) no matter when or how it's done, I think. While in theory it sounds good to suggest using the COP for GP only for a few years, but that also means there are two different scoring systems in use for a few years. In trying to think of that from the skaters perspective, I don't know if that's a great idea either. Not sure.

    On the tripple loop / 3A with fall comment. Was Phil referencing specific skaters and how they actually scored at Worlds? If so, I suspect something is wrong. The base value for a 3L is 5 points. So a well executed 3L would score at least 5, and maybe more if there is positive GOE. A 3A is worth 7.5. A fall would involved a 1 point deduction from the score, and should also be -3 GOE netting the value of the jump down to 3.5. Hmmm.....

    DG

  4. #4
    On the Ice
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    I agree with the article. Very good.

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    Well maybe a good strategy for a skater would be to put a 3 axel in her program and plan to fall on it (but make sure he/she gets in the 3.5 rotations). This allows the skaters to get in an extra triple jump and he/she will get sucked a point for the fall, but over all the missed jump might add a 1 point or a fraction after the fall deduction to his/her score.

  6. #6
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Like DoggyGirl, I have to ask ... huh?

    A triple toe loop cleanly executed has a base value of 4.0, with an opportunity for extra points via positive GOE.

    A fall on a triple Axel gives you 7.5 base, minus a mandatory -3 GOE and a -1 deduction for the fall, for a total of 3.5.

    If the skater didn't quite make it all the way around and fell short by more than a quarter revolution, then it is downgraded to a double Axel. Base 3.3, GOE -2.1, deduction -1.0, for a big whopping total of 0.2 points for the element.

    Mathman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggygirl
    On the tripple loop / 3A with fall comment. Was Phil referencing specific skaters and how they actually scored at Worlds? If so, I suspect something is wrong. The base value for a 3L is 5 points. So a well executed 3L would score at least 5, and maybe more if there is positive GOE. A 3A is worth 7.5. A fall would involved a 1 point deduction from the score, and should also be -3 GOE netting the value of the jump down to 3.5. Hmmm.....

    DG
    It was triple toeloop vs 3A that he refers to. No he diddn't specific the example of skater.

    A perfect 3toe is 4 points, A falled 3A is 7.5-3=4.5.

    A general sense of 'fall' dosn't necessary warrent -1 from overall score under CoP. There is definition of 'Fall' in CoP that both blads have to be left off ice to count as a fall. If you just simply sit down on ice with one blades still touch the ice it is not defined as a fall in CoP. I saw one of this example in one of the GP.
    Last edited by mzheng; 03-24-2005 at 02:05 PM.

  8. #8
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I thought this was an interesting point:

    "Kwan found out she no longer can make a big impression simply with the pure beauty of her edging--how the blades move across the ice."

    So, does this mean no more Dorothy Hamill? No more Yuka Sato? No more John Curry?

    Different strokes for different folks, I guess. But I can't help from asking myself, what is it about ice skating that makes it ice skating? Why do we choose to watch this sport, instead of, say, track and field?

    Mathman
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-24-2005 at 02:12 PM.

  9. #9
    On Edge Piel's Avatar
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    I wonder if the sport will end up as the point driven eligible ranks, and the skating we love will only be seen in hopefully some kind of pro ranks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piel
    I wonder if the sport will end up as the point driven eligible ranks, and the skating we love will only be seen in hopefully some kind of pro ranks?
    I'm wondering the same thing.

    Before Michelle hit the scene at 1996, I mainly stayed at pro show and competetions. And by then I was following pro pretty closely like I following amature rank from 1996 to 1999. Around then I was close but not crazy, only Nationals, Worlds and Olympics, so I still have time for pro. Mainly following Kurt, christine, etc.

    It was after Michelle and Yag, who can provide quality of both artistry like pro and atheletics like amature, around 1999-2002 when I thought I could just get the excitment and joy from amature rank alone so I stop actively follow pro skating, after all one only have that much time. I want to spend it by watching the best at the world....I think if the CoP continues being applied to competetion like the way is and left no finesss and overall clean program to be seen, I would reduce to follow pro skating again that is if there is any quality pro skating worth to follow.

  11. #11
    nthuz
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    I am so confused now. I have ISU communication 1207. Perhaps it has been revised? Attachment E, letter "h" says, "The panel's score for each element is determined by adding the trimmed mean GOE of this element to it's basic value".

    In that case the 3 axel with the fall (assuming its fully rotated)-panel gives it 3.5+7.5 (base value)=11.0
    the clean 3 toe loop-panel gives it 4.0+4.0 (base value)=8.0

  12. #12
    Hopeless fan Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Hi there...

    Quote Originally Posted by mzheng
    It was triple toeloop vs 3A that he refers to. No he diddn't specific the example of skater.

    A perfect 3toe is 4 points, A falled 3A is 7.5-3=4.5.

    A general sense of 'fall' dosn't necessary warrent -1 from overall score under CoP. There is definition of 'Fall' in CoP that both blads have to be left off ice to count as a fall. If you just simply sit down on ice with one blades still touch the ice it is not defined as a fall in CoP. I saw one of this example in one of the GP.
    My bad - didn't catch the toe loop v. loop part - I was speed reading. So you are right - base value 4, not 5.

    That must have been one strange 3A fall (or a fall on some jump) where the butt hit the ice, but only one foot. Not saying it didn't happen, but I would think that's the exception to the rule. My guess is that 99% of the time if the butt hits the ice, it's gonna be a 1 point overall score deduction, according to the definition.

    DG

  13. #13
    Hopeless fan Doggygirl's Avatar
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    I'm not ready to doom and gloom this...

    In the singles arena anyway, who all do we think skated less artistically under COP this year than under 6.0? MK is really about the only one I can think of. I think Irena just skated with the same style she always has. Carolina has improved her presentation this year over last year IMO - which is normal for a young developing skater. Sasha I think skated like Sasha. Shiz's skating has been off all year, but I don't think COP had anything to do with it. If she had executed her programs this year like she did last year, I don't think we'd all be saying she "gave up" her artistic side in favor of a purely technical style. Same for Fumie.

    I'm not trying to pick on MK, but she seems to be the focal point of discussion anyway. I'm interested in other opinions on the ladies side.

    For the men, I don't think we've ever seen this many really creative skaters in the top ranks. And if Plush had been well enough to skate World's, I don't think his style is any different under COP than it's been before. Emanual was just his usual self, but if he had skated clean that it a beautiful program that I have no doubt would have been well rewarded. So which man do we think skated less artistically under COP than 6.0??

    IMO, T&M's programs were WAY better this year than last year. S&Z had another round of what I thought were very beautiful programs. (this is aside from the concerns RGirl and Doris have raised about the increasing danger of the list)

    I just don't get the "artistry is going away" thing, but I'm all ears for examples from other perspectives about specific skaters rather than just general speculations.

    DG

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzheng
    A perfect 3toe is 4 points, A falled 3A is 7.5-3=4.5.
    An adequate 3toe is 4 points. A "perfect" 3toe (i.e., very good in all phases) would probably get GOEs of +2, making it worth 6 points.

    Quote Originally Posted by nthuz
    I am so confused now. I have ISU communication 1207. Perhaps it has been revised? Attachment E, letter "h" says, "The panel's score for each element is determined by adding the trimmed mean GOE of this element to it's basic value".

    In that case the 3 axel with the fall (assuming its fully rotated)-panel gives it 3.5+7.5 (base value)=11.0
    The base value of the triple axel is 7.5. The GOE if there's a fall is -3.0. Add -3.0 to 7.5 (i.e., subtract 3.0 from 7.5), and the technical score for that element is 4.5.

    In addition, there will be a 1.00 deduction for the fall from the total score.

    So a triple axel with a fall will add 3.5 to the total score for the program compared to if the skater had just done a three turn and kept skating without doing the jump, and will be worth 0.5 more just for the element but 0.5 LESS (counting the fall deduction) in the total score than if the skater had done an adequate but not good triple toe in its place.

    And no, a skater can't just plan to include a fully rotated 3axel in the program and fall if s/he can't land it. Usually the reason a skater consistently can't land a jump is that s/he can't rotate it consistently, or at all, especially with jumps that require more rotation than the other jumps the skater can land. If the skater can rotate the jump consistently, she can probably land it. If she can't land it, she's probably not rotating fully and could expect to have it downgraded whether she stands up (perhaps on two feet) or falls down.

  15. #15
    Rinkside
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    Looks like Michelle won't be bringing me to tears anytime soon and I am going to miss her beautiful skating. I know everyone says Irena had the skate of her life at Worlds but I felt like it was too rushed and sloppy. Is that what this sport has come down to?

    Mathman, I'm afraid track and field may soon be the sport to watch.

    Ladybug

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