Where is Pairs going?

Joesitz (RIP) · Mar 24, 2005

Why are we not getting Pairs the way we did in the past? The geneal rule on Pairs is that it should be skated as ONE. Yet we see one half of the Pairs up in the air more than on the ice. There's nothing wrong with a beautiful lift but do we have to be bombarded with them? Aside from being super dangerous, they get to be boring for me after a while.

So she's 4'9" and you are 6'2", and you lift her way above your head and turn and turn on the ice. If this was a highlight of the routine, I would appreciate it, but it is a constant continuous trick, and all are about the same but with some variation. In order to do these vaudeville tricks one has to skate with a lot of speed which means crossovers from one lift to the next.

There are no more transitions. Just movement to the next lift with an occasional side by side jump and spin. The only 'shadow' elements in the whole routine.

Where are the B&S, the S&P, the Protopopovs, all of whom gave us more than just lifts. The only attempt I saw in Moscow was Orscher and Lucash, a weak team who were performing with transitions.

Joe

hongligl · Mar 24, 2005

I feel the same way.

I liked O/S a lot when they first started, especially O. Now they don't have a program, they have only "innovative movements" that distract me from their program instead of being the highlights. lots of them are far from pleasant or graceful. Their lift looks awkward sometimes. What a pity.

I also hate the spiral sequences now more than anything else. Too much holding legs. It was fine at the beginning, but now just more than enough.

STL_Blues_fan · Mar 24, 2005

To the defence of O&S, Moskovina said on numerous occasions throughout the season that this year she was concentrating solely on the technical side of things. The choreography simply received less attention. I don't know what was her reason for this, maybe she wanted O&S to get used with COP and get noticed by the judges?

Yana

hongligl · Mar 24, 2005

Something positive: Does anybody notice the German pair, the girl? She IMO is now the most graceful girl beside Xue Shen. I like her posture and extension a lot. She just carried herself so beautifully. I would put her in my list to watch.

show 42 · Mar 24, 2005

I don't know, Joe. I lost interest in the pair's competition this year when Shen and Zhao pulled out of Worlds. To me, it's the chemistry between the two that makes for greatness. Gordeeva and Grinkov had it, so did Sale and Pelltier. If ice dancers can exude that emotional tie, why can't pairs? 42

nicole_l · Mar 24, 2005

Shen & Zhao are THE pair of their generation.

Panther2000 · Mar 24, 2005

show 42 said:
I don't know, Joe. I lost interest in the pairs competition this year when Shen and Zhao pulled out of Worlds. To me, it's the chemistry between the two that makes for greatness. Gordeeva and Grinkov had it, so did Sale and Pelltier. If ice dancers can exude that emotional tie, why can't pairs? 42

I feel the same way. Shen/Zhao are the G&G of today. I lost interest with them out of the competition. Unlike the mens filed with Plushenko pulled out. That field was wide open. & All brian had to do was reach out & take it. However, with the chinese # 1 couple out then it was a bore.

I too agree with that there seems to be more focus on the trix & Lifts today instead of the pairs skating as 1 with Passion & fire. I don't see to much of that nowadays.

Panther2000 · Mar 24, 2005

nicole_l said:
Shen & Zhao are THE pair of their generation.

I think so.

KwanFan1212 · Mar 25, 2005

I think the potential is there, at least with a few of our younger/newer US pairs, for a return to that sort of pairs skating, but right now, with the top teams I saw at Worlds, I've got nothing. Shen & Zhao are about it for me too as far as pairs I enjoy watching in the top ranks and I was so bummed they had to withdraw.

Its all about the tricks now and racking up points which is totally taking away from the art of pairs skating. That just crushes me since I adore pairs skating, its my fave discipline, and i don't want to see it go this way.

On the other hand, I am the eternal optimist about our US pairs from watching two years of the junior and senior pairs at Nats who never get shown on TV. I do think we have a lot of potential in a few of the younger pairs who aren't all about the tricks and this year in St. Louis, I can foresee about a four way battle for spots on the US Olys team if they all keep improving as they have the last two years. Katie & Garrett, Rena & John, Marcy & Aaron, and Amanda & Mark are our top four US teams, in terms of the top pairs who are all still together and not going anywhere. If they all skate the way I've seen them skate in practices before, then we have the potential for a really stellar group for the younger teams to look up to and maybe our US pairs can finally build up our US pairs program. We have a few younger junior teams who have the goods and just need to mature a little bit more so they can really come out swinging. Our US pairs don't necessarily lag behind in the tricks and choreography, they just need to learn to become stronger competitors so that they can stand up there with all those other teams at competitions. I am seriously more excited about our potential in the US pairs than I was about the entire top ten at the most recent Worlds. Yikes, that's pretty scary!! But I really do believe this, as crazy as I sound, and I think the next couple of years are going to be great for the US in pairs. Now, everyone can go off on me and laugh their heads off but I will come back to this thread after St. Louis and say, I told you so!!! LOL :rock:

OK, pairs rant over, I think I need a nap! LOL :yes:

mpal2 · Mar 25, 2005

I agree somewhat with Heather, but not as enthusiastically. :laugh:

I saw some great potential for pairs teams in the US Junior ranks. The only reason whay I'm not completely crazy with joy is because I don't know how many actually plan on staying together. Of those that stay together, how many will be able to transition up to the sbs triples and throw triples.

I did like the Novice Pairs Champions because he skates were silent during a lift. He was balancing himself and her quite nicely. Most of the Novice lifts scared me to death, but this team was great.
Back to the pairs competition at Worlds. I like Totmianina and Marinin, but Shen & Zhao have my love.

I hated to see my favorite team withdraw and the competition did lose some excitement for me.

Ladskater · Mar 25, 2005

Joesitz said:
Why are we not getting Pairs the way we did in the past? The geneal rule on Pairs is that it should be skated as ONE. Yet we see one half of the Pairs up in the air more than on the ice. There's nothing wrong with a beautiful lift but do we have to be bombarded with them? Aside from being super dangerous, they get to be boring for me after a while.

So she's 4'9" and you are 6'2", and you lift her way above your head and turn and turn on the ice. If this was a highlight of the routine, I would appreciate it, but it is a constant continuous trick, and all are about the same but with some variation. In order to do these vaudeville tricks one has to skate with a lot of speed which means crossovers from one lift to the next.

There are no more transitions. Just movement to the next lift with an occasional side by side jump and spin. The only 'shadow' elements in the whole routine.

Where are the B&S, the S&P, the Protopopovs, all of whom gave us more than just lifts. The only attempt I saw in Moscow was Orscher and Lucash, a weak team who were performing with transitions.

Joe

Hey Joe:

Well said. What I miss is the chemistry between the two skaters and their connection to the music and each other. That is what makes Sale and Pelleteier so special, they "ooze" chemistry and really connect to the music. Paul Martini and Barb Underhill also were electrifying when they skated.

The great pairs teams of the past did simpler programs, but they skated with passion and flow. Now it is all about lifts, the same thing is happening in dance.
Oh, for the good old days!!!

Cal Girl · Mar 25, 2005

Well after watching worlds I have to agree there is not much there that draws me into the pairs or their programs and the reason for me is they lack "the It factor!" I loved S/P, B/S, and G/G for that reason alone. And can still turn on an old tape of them and love watching their simple programs!
In the new COP system I think we are going to see better unison, skating, and transitions both in and out of elements as that is how teams get extra points internationally and hopefully soon here in the US.
Personally, I like the lifts and understand some of the difficulty it takes to execute them so elegantly, but what I worry about is the ability the US has in keeping pairs together for a long period of time so they can acquire consistency in the more difficult sbs elements and throws.
The other issue with pairs that I see is that most American Girl skaters tend to outgrow their partners. We dont have a large base of male skaters any way and then it just so happens that the smaller framed men are choosing pairs and the girls hit puberty and seem to pass some of them by.
I watched Nationals in Portland this year and I thought to myself there were very few girls who had a LONG future in pairs considering the size differential with their skating partners. The men, who tended to be older and done growing with the young girls on the verge of their growth.
I am hopeful, however, that in the Novice and Junior ranks we have some talent and it was evidenced by some well put together programs with good execution of elements - which has always baffled me at the Senior level.
So . . . I guess we will just have to see what comes of our Pairs. But I do hope we get some to the top 5 at Worlds in the next few years.

clairecloutier · Mar 25, 2005

I agree that chemistry is critical in pairs skating. Shen & Zhao have it in spades; no one else really does right now. (Despite the fact that Tomianina & Marinin used to be an off-ice couple, and I think Petrova & Tikhonov still are!)

Chemistry isn't everything, but it counts for a lot in pairs. It makes the difference between a good program and a great program.

Aside from the chemistry issue, I agree that the current focus on super-difficult lifts is also something of a problem. I always think back to seeing Gordeeva & Grinkova at the 94 Olympics. Their lifts probably weren't the most technically difficult. As I recall, they did a fairly simple star lift in their long program, along with a classic swan (?) lift with just one different air position and a kind of jump-like dismount. So maybe their lifts weren't the most difficult. But they were so perfectly executed! Sergei's turning speed was excellent and Katia's positions in the air were absolutely flawless. Their lifts were just gorgeous.

Whereas, a lot of the lifts we're seeing now look clunky and awkward and, in some cases, even ugly. The lifts may be difficult, but they're not aesthetically pleasing or, often, well-executed. So that is a problem.

Much as I respect and admire her, I have to partially blame Tamara Moskvina for this trend. Tamara's always been really big on innovative moves in pairs, and while her best pairs, such as Mishkuteniok/Dmitriev, could handle the really difficult and innovative choreography and tricks, it really doesn't work for pairs of lesser quality.

rain · Mar 25, 2005

nicole_l said:
Shen & Zhao are THE pair of their generation.

See, I think pairs started going downhill after S/P and B/S left leading to the onset of the S/Z era, if you will. To me, this team is totally lacking in chemistry to this day and are all about tricks rather than beautiful skating. They certainly have features I can appreciate, but I can't love them and all the superlatives regarding this team just annoy me. It always leaves me wondering why nobody seems to be able to see their faults eg. the fact that they still grasp at each other push/pull each other (noticeable particularly in pairs spins) and that he consistently drops her the final foot to the ice after lifts and the twist. I have reluctantly concluded the last several years, however, that at the moment they are the top in the world. But how much more I'd rather watch Pang/Tong (the most musical and expressive of the Chinese teams IMO) or the new German team or even Wakamatsu and Fecteau. T/M, S/Z, the Zhangs and the second Russian pair all leave me cold.

On the issue of lifts - I don't find them particulalry to be the problem, though the constant changing of air position, which often looks awkward, and some of the entrances and exits the teams are trying to make them worth more points just muddies the waters, IMO and often takes away from the beauty of the lifts. I think just as distracting are the sometimes three side-by-side (not including combos) jumps that a lot of the pairs are trying to jam into their programs now, to accrue points (I think I have yet to see a pair successfully complete all three). After watching this year's worlds I also complained about some of the lack of decent death spirals and side-by-side spins - basis stuff for senior pairs, but many, notably, could hardly do them. I tend to agree that the basic pairs qualities are being sadly left by the wayside. I'm hopeful this is just some of the growing pains of COP, not to mention that a number of the pairs are still quite new as well. But what I wouldn't give to watch some Mishkotounik or Kazakova and Dimitriev choreography!

Hikaru · Mar 25, 2005

rain said:
See, I think pairs started going downhill after S/P and B/S left leading to the onset of the S/Z era, if you will. To me, this team is totally lacking in chemistry to this day and are all about tricks rather than beautiful skating. They certainly have features I can appreciate, but I can't love them and all the superlatives regarding this team just annoy me.

I think I understand where you are comming, and I agree with you that B&S had a beautiful presentation and skating skills (I absolutely loved their Chaplin program, I think it will be my favorite of their programs), however I have to disagree with all you said about Shen and Zhao, and we both will have to "agree to disagree" like they say around here

. I cannot explain you the feeling and emotion that Shen and Zhao have and portray through their skating, because it is just something the audience feel when we see them.

For me, Shen and Zhao are THE pair, like another poster said, because not only they have the awesome tricks, but they skate with power, and every element and choreography they perform has a meaning, and that comes from the connection they have. I also love Pang and Tong, their skating is so different from Shen and Zhao and I agree about their musicality, but to me they still don't have they same connection between each other as Shen and Zhao, or at least they don't show it yet...that or maybe I haven't felt it yet (could be).

I missed them terribly at this worlds, however even with the small mistakes they made on the short, I loved the intention of their Clair de Lune. That music suits them very well, and they make it justice. :agree:

rain · Mar 25, 2005

Hikaru said:
I think I understand where you are comming, and I agree with you that B&S had a beautiful presentation and skating skills (I absolutely loved their Chaplin program, I think it will be my favorite of their programs), however I have to disagree with all you said about Shen and Zhao, and we both will have to "agree to disagree" like they say around here . I cannot explain you the feeling and emotion that Shen and Zhao have and portray through their skating, because it is just something the audience feel when we see them.

For me, Shen and Zhao are THE pair, like another poster said, because not only they have the awesome tricks, but they skate with power, and every element and choreography they perform has a meaning, and that comes from the connection they have. I also love Pang and Tong, their skating is so different from Shen and Zhao and I agree about their musicality, but to me they still don't have they same connection between each other as Shen and Zhao, or at least they don't show it yet...that or maybe I haven't felt it yet (could be).

I missed them terribly at this worlds, however even with the small mistakes they made on the short, I loved the intention of their Clair de Lune. That music suits them very well, and they make it justice. :agree:

Don't worry, I'm used to being in the very tiny minority re: Shen/Zhou. It's in the eye of the beholder, I guess, I don't feel any connection between them when they skate, though as you said, they do have wonderful power.
At least we can agree on enjoying Pang/Tong!

Hikaru · Mar 25, 2005

rain said:
At least we can agree on enjoying Pang/Tong!

that's right! I was so mad for not getting to see their short program on TV, so I downloaded it from the internet. Good choice of music!

Matt · Mar 25, 2005

hongligl said:
Something positive: Does anybody notice the German pair, the girl?QUOTE]

You're referring to Savchenko & Szolkowy of Germany. They have a lot of promise as the successors to all those teams we have previously mentioned in the thread. Both of their programmes at Worlds were fantastic (especially their "Casablanca" FP :agree: ). They're still young and have only been together for a short time, but I have a feeling we'll be seeing them for many years to come (*fingers crossed, hoping the Skating Gods didn't hear that*)

The Moskvina suggestion is well founded, but I think a lot of blame can be put on the new CoP as well (as much a fan of it as I am). With difficulty levels of 1, 2, 3 for everything from lifts to spirals to sbs spins, I think a lot of pairs feel like they have to cram their programmes with so much difficult stuff first before they step back and consciously think "can we actually perform that?". I had never seen a botched lift or a fall on a lift until O/S at Cup of Russia. I think it's because skaters are trying to step out of their comfort zone to stay ahead of the game. Plus, everyone drools over the throws and the split twists of the Chinese and wants to do them like the Chinese. Yet the difference is the Chinese pairs are strong in their technique on those elements, whereas a lot of teams that are trying to be like the Chinese aren't as strong because they're trying to do too much too soon

Hikaru · Mar 25, 2005

I've been listening a lot of buzz about the german pair. Does anybody know where can I get some videos from them??

mzheng · Mar 26, 2005

I can't pick which one I like better between Katie & Garrett, Rena & John.
But I think among US pairs, Katie&Garrett has the future. They are younger than Rana&John. And their throw triple lutz is HUGE, rival chinese pairs. Katie's posture and style is so classic of pairs, only if Garrett got some more stenghth.

Anyone know NNN is skating pairs now. Her partner is one of the twin brother (sorry can't remember the name), they have new program choreographed for them next season.

Where is Pairs going?

Joesitz (RIP)

hongligl

STL_Blues_fan

hongligl

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan

nicole_l

Panther2000

Panther2000

KwanFan1212

Joey Votto Fangirl

mpal2

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

Cal Girl

clairecloutier

rain

Hikaru

rain

Hikaru

Matt

Hikaru

mzheng

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