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Thread: Two 3Zs and two 3Fs will become the new standard

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    Two 3Zs and two 3Fs will become the new standard

    In order to maximize the points for jumps, the minimum requirement is 2 triple lutzes and 2 triple flips. How many attempted them besides Sasha and Michelle? Maybe not many in the last Worlds but this jump layout will become the new standard in future the way 2 lutzes were in the mid 90s onwards, IMHO. There is no better way to maximize the points for a 6-triple program.

    Good for Michelle, thank god her 3f is much stronger than her 3l. Her 3f was even awarded 0.71 GOE and her 3l would have probably been downgraded or given minus GOE had she attempted it. Besides the 3f is worth more than the 3lp in base points. So it was a smart choice after all to leave out the individual 3l completely. Her 3lp would be executed only in a 3/3 for the 7 jumping passes. Looking back at the reports of her practising the 3t/3l prior to 2005 Worlds, it all makes sense to me now.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    There is, however, some speculation that the judges will award lower scores in the "skating skills" component to skaters who do not present the full complement of jumps.

    I totally agree that the skaters with the biggest advantage will be those who can do a triple something/triple loop in combination. I think Slutskaya is the only one doing this now.

    I was looking again at the scores for the Worlds short program. Carolina Kostner won the technical part, entirely on the fact that she was the only one of the top ladies that did a triple-triple (she got 10.5 points, including GOE, for that one element alone). Since the only thing that matters is your total points for the whole shebang, the combination in the short is about the only way to squeeze an extra triple into your total program(s).

    Very risky, though. Fumie fell on her combo jump and it took her completely out of the competition, even though both her short and her long were excellent otherwise.

    Mathman

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    And don't forget the Sport is still a subjective sport. I believe if a skater does a quad, his mark for an ordinary camel spin gets more credit than it deserves subjectively. Judges are human.

    Joe

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Good point again, Joe. In the SP, after Carolina hit her triple/triple she got positive GOEs on every element that she did afterward.

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    I don't think it's fair to mark down a skaters score for not having all jumps. Why aren't they marking down for over doing beilmans then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    I totally agree that the skaters with the biggest advantage will be those who can do a triple something/triple loop in combination. I think Slutskaya is the only one doing this now.

    Mathman
    Don't forget Miki Ando. I still can't believe her 3Lz-3L was downgraded in the long, unless the judges are taking of for pre-rotation too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fossi
    I don't think it's fair to mark down a skaters score for not having all jumps. Why aren't they marking down for over doing beilmans then?
    While I don't think it's fair to mark down a skater's score for not having all jumps, but I do think a single skater landed all different type triples (for lady 5 diff triples and a 2axel, for man 6 diff treiples) should get reward with bonus points. Also bonus points for complete all planned elements in LP cleanly.

    Also manditory deduction to missing required elements in SP.
    Deduction for over using same positions in one program. Well not necessary the deductions but a lower choreograph marks should apply.

    The purpose is to encourage the skater developing a well belanced program, with veriaty movements on ice, but at the same time within their skating ability to skate program cleanly. Jeffery's program was difficult and beautyful but obviously he couldn't handle it when the pressure was on. While he won silver fair and sauare, but it was very disturb to see no man on podium skated a clean program. Only one lady on podium skated a clean program.

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    Mathman:
    There is, however, some speculation that the judges will award lower scores in the "skating skills" component to skaters who do not present the full complement of jumps.
    I can't deny that it can happen. Now, why can't the judges come forth and explain if skaters can perform a full repertoire of jumps, the PCS can be positively impacted. They should also explain exactly how much the PCS can be increased. Why so secretive and cause unnecessary speculation of corrupt judging?

    Joesitz:
    And don't forget the Sport is still a subjective sport. I believe if a skater does a quad, his mark for an ordinary camel spin gets more credit than it deserves subjectively. Judges are human.
    Again, I can't deny that it can happen. Again, why can't the judges explain that too?

    Mathman and Joe, you two make some valid points there which I can't refute. However, I find it frustrating about all this unspoken rule from the judges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mzheng
    While I don't think it's fair to mark down a skater's score for not having all jumps, but I do think a single skater landed all different type triples (for lady 5 diff triples and a 2axel, for man 6 diff treiples) should get reward with bonus points. Also bonus points for complete all planned elements in LP cleanly.
    I agree there could be some kind of bonus for completing all types of jump, like you said. I'm not sure it could work re: bonus points for all planned elements in the LP done cleanly though - "clean" has different interpretations, so there could be issues there, and also what if a skater changes his/her programme as they're performing it? Take Irina, for instance. She skated her elements cleanly at Worlds, but IIRC changed the first combo - it was planned as a 3lutz2loop, but she went for the 3lutz3loop and nailed it. It'd have to take situations like that into account, not just relying on what was "planned" on the sheet. Like if a skater plans a 3/3 but in the end performs a clean 3/2, or changes a jump completely to another one, again done cleanly, they shouldn't be penalised for that.

    Take this situation - skater A "plans" a 3/2, and performs it cleanly. Skater B "plans" a 3/3 but instead performs a clean 3/2. In essence, they've skated exactly the same jump, but skater A gets a bonus for what was put on the paper. It could happen like that, and it wouldn't be fair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by apache88
    In order to maximize the points for jumps, the minimum requirement is 2 triple lutzes and 2 triple flips.
    only if they have true lutz and flips and not flutz and lips
    Last edited by gezando; 04-02-2005 at 06:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gezando
    only ig they have true lutz and flips and not flutz and lips


    So a typical program will be:

    Triple Loop
    Triple Sal
    Triple Toe
    Four Triple Flips

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisthingcalledlove
    So a typical program will be:

    Triple Loop
    Triple Sal
    Triple Toe
    Four Triple Flips

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    Quote Originally Posted by apache88
    In order to maximize the points for jumps, the minimum requirement is 2 triple lutzes and 2 triple flips. How many attempted them besides Sasha and Michelle? Maybe not many in the last Worlds but this jump layout will become the new standard in future the way 2 lutzes were in the mid 90s onwards, IMHO. There is no better way to maximize the points for a 6-triple program.
    Just want to point out that at Worlds, Sasha attempted 2 triple flips and two triple salchows and one triple flutz. The only skaters I remember who did two flips and two lutzes were Michelle, Fumie, and Elena Liashenko.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JunJohn21
    Just want to point out that at Worlds, Sasha attempted 2 triple flips and two triple salchows and one triple flutz. The only skaters I remember who did two flips and two lutzes were Michelle, Fumie, and Elena Liashenko.
    How would Sarah Hughes handle this, when and if she comes back?

    Triple Sal/Triple Loop
    Triple Toe/Triple Loop
    Triple Flip/Dbl Toe
    Triple Flip
    Double Axel
    Triple Toe/Dbl Toe?

  15. #15
    Custom Title ks777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisthingcalledlove
    How would Sarah Hughes handle this, when and if she comes back?

    Triple Sal/Triple Loop
    Triple Toe/Triple Loop
    Triple Flip/Dbl Toe
    Triple Flip
    Double Axel
    Triple Toe/Dbl Toe?

    more like
    double sal/double loop
    double toe/double loop
    double flip/single toe
    double lutz(she can probably do this without flutzing, I hope)
    single axel

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