ISU Changes to GP

gkelly · Mar 31, 2005

Henie participated in 12 world championships -- 1924 (5th out of 7, at age 11), 1926 (2nd out of 6), and 1927-36 (1st). I don't know why she skipped 1925.

So yeah, Kwan has gone to more Worlds in a row.

Elena Liashenko's first Worlds was also 1994, but she missed 1997 (Ukraine only had one spot that year, and Yulia Lavrenchuk took it), so she's equal to Henie on participation but nowhere close on results.

Would be interesting but time consuming to research more whether anyone has gone to more than 12, especially in a row. More likely in other disciplines.

Mathman · Mar 31, 2005

I think irina Rodnina has the most in pairs, with 10 world championships in a row plus 3 Olympics.

Panther2000 · Mar 31, 2005

soogar said:
Well I think it would be mandatory for skaters who aren't injured. I don't believe that the ISU will force a skater with a legitimate injury to skate in the GP. This all came down because of Yevgeny Plushenko skating shows while pulling out of events b/c of injury. If he didn't do that, you wouldn't see the ISU cracking down like this. At least Michelle has the decency and good sense not to do shows while not doing the GP (just cheesefests sanctioned by her Federation).

I'm pretty sure that Klimkin and the other injured skaters really would have preferred to skate in the GP events instead of sitting them out. I imagine that not competing cost these skaters quite a bit of income.

I am glad that there are a few who realize why the memo was passed down. From what I have read on the boards in the past & such. People tried to say the it was because of Michelle. Yes, I do believe that they did have michelle in mind. But, like I stated so many times. She always came out & stated her reasons why & their was no lying about why she was out. They closed that loopwhole in regarding her sitting out during the seasons. But, I have no doubt that Plush was injured for the past 2 years. However, to pull out & skate in other shows, shows poor judgement & not very smart. Regardless of an exhibition or not.

Panther2000 · Mar 31, 2005

chuckm said:
There's a great difference between skating in a show and skating in a competition. Show skating doesn't demand quads and 3As and a program packed with spins and choreography. The demands on the body are much, much less.

That is not the point. It is unprofessional I wrong. If you are too injured to skate then you are too injured to skate. & that means anywhere.

Last night, Sasha competed in the USFS event with a groin pull. Although she did do her competition program, she still did not feel the need to push herself beyond what she was capable of with the injury. Where she could do an "intramural" competition, I doubt she would have been able to do a GP event and skate full out in that condition without further injuring herself.

Sasha with injury ( checked by her & their doctors) would be able to miss a competition or 2. Depending the injury. But, while she is out, she would not be allowed to skate other skating shows. & I see nothing wrong wit that. If your are too injured to skate in 1 place then you are too injured to skate during that time to sakte anywhere else.

I could understand that a skater with a heavy cold might want to skip a competition that required a long plane trip, because the cold could easily spread into the ears and mastoids and become a serious infection. Under Speedy's draconian pronouncement, skaters would be forced to jeopardize their health to show up on demand.

Not really, That is not what it is saying at all. But, they just are stopping people from taking advantage of the system.

Panther2000 · Mar 31, 2005

Mk4Eva said:
I think it would be ok to make non injured skaters skate in at least one GP event. As far as Michelle goes I do somewhat understand why she has skipped the GP over the last few years! If I had been a top level skater as long as Michelle has you come to the body issue! For those who have never skated it's a lot harder on the body than most people think! Then again I question not trying out the COP before Moscow!?!? IMO Michelle is a star and can do whatever she wants. I do hope she does at least one GP to get feedback on the new programs! Good luck to her!

I am a massive fan of michelle also. But, right is right. Skip 1season ok, 2 not really fair to other skaters. sikp 3 with a new system in place. Well, we all saw how that turned out. She kept herself healty, but in the long run hurt herself.

I don't think that they will allow her to skip a 4th season.

mpal2 · Mar 31, 2005

How is Michelle skipping the GP unfair to other skaters? She had a couple bad Worlds experiences and only hurt herself. Other skaters either got a chance to compete at the GP or even place better at Worlds because of their current season/COP experience.

VIETgrlTerifa · Mar 31, 2005

mpal2 said:
How is Michelle skipping the GP unfair to other skaters? She had a couple bad Worlds experiences and only hurt herself. Other skaters either got a chance to compete at the GP or even place better at Worlds because of their current season/COP experience.

Exactly. I never understood the big fuss considering that the current rules that the ISU have doesn't make any skater do the GP. If they change the rules over the off-season, then fine, but the fact is that Kwan broke no rules by choosing not to do the GP. The way some people talk, it's like skating is a tea party where the competitors have to be fair rather than a sport.

Mathman · Mar 31, 2005

Is there supposed to be some kind of correlation between participating in the Grand Prix and competing in the World championship?

I just made a quick count. Of the 39 ladies who participated in the World championship, 21 of them did not do any Grand Prix event.

Of the 38 ladies who did at least one Grand Prix event, 19 did not make their country's world team, or did not participate in Worlds for some other reason.

All of the following skipped the Grand Prix (or were not invited), yet they represented their counties at worlds (off with their heads, says Speedy!):

Kwan, Cohen, Meier, Carter, Pavuk, Didier, VenHuizen, Kreuzer, Falotico, Karademir, Luca, Maxwell, Choi, Katz, Radeva, Fernandez, Glebova, Meluik, Cantu, Vostrecovaite, Human, Bates, Chen.

The following skaters did the Grand Prix but not worlds: Nikodinov, Czisny, Corwin (presumably two of these three would replace the two malefactors Kwan and Cohen under Speedy's plan), Ota, Manzano, Calvez, Zhang, Onda, Leung, Hawker, Nakano, Babiakova, Volchkova, Drei, Marchei, Kettunen, Fang, Basova and Maniachenko.

Unless you think there should be a special rule that applies just to Kwan and Cohen, a lot of competitors would find themselves ineligible if the ISU would change its rules to provide fo some sort of tie-in between the two.

Mathman

LegalGirl82 · Mar 31, 2005

Mathman said:
As far as I can tell, the ISU did not come up with any new rule changes at their post-Worlds meeting. At least they did not announce anything. My guess would be that next year they will work behind the scenes to insure a successful season, rather than make proclamations and ultimatums.

MM

That would be the smart thing to do, IMO. I think Speedy is lucky the Russian Federation didn't ride him out of Moscow on a rail for what happened with Plushenko after the pressure he exerted. I know Plushenko didn't really help his own cause, but hey, as of yet, GP participation isn't mandatory.

I think Speedy better think long and hard about making a "GP is mandatory" proclamation before next season. Imagine if Skater X (insert name of any top skater here) gets forced into doing the GP, incurs an injury and can't go to either his/her nationals and/or the Olympics. Between Skater X's federation and the fans of Skater X, Speedy is going to have a big bull's eye on his back.

I imagine either the current GP setup or a revised setup will eventually become mandatory, but I think with some modifications they could make it attractive enough to all of the skaters without even having to make it mandatory. I'm not an expert, by any stretch of the imagination, but I would suggest any or all of the following:

Starting the series in September;

Participation required in at least one event, with the skaters having the option of doing one other, but the second one has to be a different event each year, so that they don't do the same two each and every year;

Making the events stand-alone like they used to be; in other words, no Final; or, as an alternative, have the Final only in non-Olympic seasons;

Trim the series in half and alternate the events by year; i.e. Skate America, TEB and NHK one year and Skate Canada, Cup of China and Cup of Russia the next year--they should probably be able to increase the number of entrants by doing this as well. And if the individual federations still want to have "their event" such as Skate America or Cup of Russia in their "off" years, they still could--it just wouldn't count as part of the series.

LegalGirl82 · Mar 31, 2005

Just read your last post, Mathman. Interesting stats. You should send that off to Speedy. Maybe he needs to see it in black and white.

Mathman · Mar 31, 2005

Hi, Legalgirl. To respond to your post, I still have a problem with this mandatory business. For whom would it be mandatory? As I hinted in my post just above, would you want to write into the rule book (Rule number 34672): "Michelle Kwan must do the Grand Prix but Joanne Carter doesn't have to."

Would the criteria be, whomever the ISU chooses to invite has to do it, but if you don't get invited, then you don't have to and you can still do worlds?

Would the criteria be, everyone on the ISU's list of the top ten have to do it, but the rest don't. (This would be good for Michelle -- she's way down the list. You get on the list by doing the GP, etc., LOL.)

And here is another problem. Legally (LOL), the ISU is a confederation of National Skating Federations. The ISU can write letters to its member federations, but not to skaters. (Skaters are not members of the ISU.) The power of the ISU to place restrictions on skaters is a murky one. And for the ISU to try to dictate to a member federation whom they may or may not send to represent them at the world championship is a tricky business.

As for the Olympics, there is also the IOC and its rules and expectations to consider. Not to mention financial interests. Would television networks and their sponsors ante up for an Olympic games if the top draws have been kicked out? Everyone has a boss, even Speedy.

Mathman

LegalGirl82 · Apr 1, 2005

Excellent points all around, Mathman. In my ramblings, I didn't make myself clear. I don't think GP participation should be mandatory--I never have. I'm basically an old-fashioned girl who remembers the days when all we saw were Nationals, Worlds and Olympics, and I didn't necessarily think this was a bad thing, except for when I had to sit through all three hours of ABC's Wide World of Sports on Saturdays to catch the one-and-a-half hours of skating dispersed throughout the program (LOL). There I go rambling again...

IMO, the basic theory behind the GP is a good thing--more skating. But as you pointed out, the mechanics, politics and financial aspects behind making the GP mandatory is a slippery slope. I do think, however, if the GP is made mandatory, then it by nature will no longer be "invitational" and the ISU would of course have to set up some kind of criteria.

I do believe Speedy will eventually have his way (just as he did with the CoP) and the GP will in some way become mandatory. Maybe not this upcoming season for the reasons I stated in my last post, but eventually nevertheless. Unless of course his "boss" steps in and tries to talk some sense into him. Or the Federations get together and "enlighten" him.

In my last post, I was just throwing out suggestions to make the GP more appealing to the skaters, so that the whole issue of making the GP mandatory could be shelved and a potential flashpoint cooled.

BTW, love your point about Michelle being way down on the list. Wouldn't that stick in Speedy's craw? :laugh:

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 1, 2005

I like the Gran Prix events because it is a training grounds for 4Cs, Euros, Worlds and Olys. Those four are the major events. I don't think the GPs should be mandatory for selected skaters, and I believe they should be spaced a good distance from the 4 more major events I listed above.

Grand Prix events are ISU invited skaters
COI tours are Collins invited skaters
SOI tours are Hamilton invited skaters

The top skaters will choose money over medals during the summer months, so we can't have GPs during the summer where they belong. And the venues of the GPs now involve too much travelling leading up to the 4Cs and Euros leading up to the Worlds and Olys.

The venues of the GPs need to be rethought and also to include all the top 15 skaters from the previous major event. Skaters need not do more than one event. The non-scoring one should be abolished.

Joe

chuckm · Apr 1, 2005

Legalgirl is right. The ISU has no one-to-one relationship with skaters, only with the Federations. So the ISU can't punish skaters for not doing the Grand Prix--it can only punish federations.

So if ISU tries to force skaters to participate in the GP by threatening to fine or suspend the federation or not allowing them to send certain skaters to Worlds, I can't see the federations going along with such a proposal. In effect, the ISU would be in a position of dictating to a federation who could and who could not attend Worlds (or Olympics).

I can't see how such an arrangement would ever be acceptable to any of the parties (except Speedy, of course), or even legally defensible.

Jaana · Apr 2, 2005

About GP events, I think that for years they were:

Skate America
Skate Canada
Nations Cup (Germany)
Lalique in France
NHK in Japan
Cup of Russia

Recently Cup of China has been added and the German Nations Cup dropped out.

Where does the idea of exhausting travelling, etc, in late season come from? Never earlier did skaters complain about that. Actually many of the seeded skaters voluntarily chose to participate in THREE events. I suspect that the whole issue here is the reduced prize money...

Maybe in the first place it was a bad idea from ISU to invent e.g. GP series with prize money? Without that and other prize moneys, attendance fees for certain skaters, etc. many of the skaters would have turned pro after competing successfully e.g. in the Olympics and there would be less skaters injured now (because their eligible career would not have been so long)? Because ISU has allowed prize moneys, etc., many of the skaters have become millionaires. Maybe the clock should be turned down and to return in the old system where skaters earned the big money after they turned pro, LOL?

VIETgrlTerifa · Apr 2, 2005

Because ISU has allowed prize moneys, etc., many of the skaters have become millionaires. Maybe the clock should be turned down and to return in the old system where skaters earned the big money after they turned pro, LOL?

And yes, while we're at it, let's make female skaters wear long skirts for modesty. Honestly though, if that happened, then we'd see less established skaters doing the GP and opting to do the big championships, that is if the rules remain the same.

I have no problem with figure skating joining the rest of the sporting world in allowing it's competitors to have a career in competitive sport. The fact is, many of the skaters won't make much money turning pro, so why not allow them to make money while doing something that they're good at. Mostly every other Olympic sport allows their competitors to cash in. Besides, it's not like skaters make that much money anyway. No skater has become a millionaire by competing. Kwan became a millionaire with her endorsements, not with her winnings.

thisthingcalledlove · Apr 2, 2005

VIETgrlTerifa said:
And yes, while we're at it, let's make female skaters wear long skirts for modesty. Honestly though, if that happened, then we'd see less established skaters doing the GP and opting to do the big championships, that is if the rules remain the same.

I have no problem with figure skating joining the rest of the sporting world in allowing it's competitors to have a career in competitive sport. The fact is, many of the skaters won't make much money turning pro, so why not allow them to make money while doing something that they're good at. Mostly every other Olympic sport allows their competitors to cash in. Besides, it's not like skaters make that much money anyway. No skater has become a millionaire by competing. Kwan became a millionaire with her endorsements, not with her winnings.

ITA. The skaters ALL AROUND need prize money. Skating is an expensive sport (my parents are still paying for my forays into ice dance). However, the ISU did create the prize money to try to lure skaters into staying on the scene, and not turning pro.

Jaana, it's funny that you mention that people are injured because they stay too long for the prize money-- a great number of skaters who are injured are the young ones who are actually only around for no longer than five years...

Mathman · Apr 2, 2005

Unfortunately, it looks like the ISU will not be able to afford to offer much prize money whether they want to or not. What with the $20 million per year ABC contract gone and now ESPN is trying to get out of their $5 million per year deal.

It appears that whatever the intentions of the ISU might be, the atheletes are on their way back down to true amateur status.

Mathman

Eliza · Apr 2, 2005

Excuse me while I ramble on a bit here.

I've always enjoyed the GP's, but have never understood why ISU decided they needed to have a GP Final. I'm sure an official explantation has probably been in print somewhere, but I don't remember. I've always thought the final is unnecessary. The skater's had Nationals, Worlds, and every 4 years (or 2 years one time) there were the Olympics.

Then the GP final was brought in & now there's Four Continents. At least I can understand the reason for having 4C. I think it is meant to take the place of the long defunct North American Championship & include all other non-European countries,

To me, the GPF is just not necessary. I tend to not take it seriously - mostly because at one time the format was so silly. The skater's in 1st & 2nd competed in the final for gold & silver. Skater's in 3rd & 4th skated for bronze & 4th - they couldn't finish any higher than 3rd. 5th & 6th followed the same format. It was the most stupid format. I always wondered "Why bother, it's so meaningless". Even now that the format has changed, I still don't see why they have it.

I guess I just remember the days before GPF & I never felt that anything was missing.

Was the creation of the GPF an attempt to make the individual GP's more interesting to skating fans? Did they think they could sell more tickets if the GP's were made to seem more important by having a final? I know attendance at Skate America was pretty bad in 1989 when it was in my home town. That's the only reason I can think of.

Eliza

attyfan · Apr 2, 2005

To Michelle and Sasha (at least), the prize money (especially for the GP) is probably chump change compared to what they earn from touring, personal appearances, and/or endorsements. Does ISU prize money have a great impact for other top skaters, or, do they depend on the cheesefests? (the 50K that Irina won at the end of last year in Marshall's equalled what she earned on two GP events) II also read somewhere that, for skaters who don't have a great deal of competitive success, the "prize money" (if any) barely pays the cost of getting to the event. I think that maybe the ISU should eliminate the GP, and, encourage more cheesefests.

ISU Changes to GP

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Mathman

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