Michelle Kwan - Premature Crowning?

IMHO, the United States Figure Skating Association needs to score next year's competitive programs in a manner that accurately reflects what happens on the ice. It seems to me that the USFSA has such a love affair with Michelle Kwan that even a mediocre (for her) performance receives high marks.

Case in point: 2004 US Nationals. Kwan finished her short program several seconds after the end of the music, and she was not marked down for that mistake. Yes, the judges marked her down when she stumbled on her double axel, but she also should have received deductions for skating past the time limit. When Kwan did the same thing at the 2004 Worlds short program - skating past the time limit - the judges nailed her. Kwan and her coach were dumbfounded. Duh. Perhaps they should all read the rule book.

Another case in point: 2005 US Nationals. Kwan made two mistakes in her long prgram - doubling the second planned triple lutz and finishing after the music had stopped. Even she knew she had not skated her best. What did the lamebrain judges do - award her with a slew of 6.0s. Give me a break. OK, this was probably the last competition Michelle will ever compete in with the old 6.0 judging system, but a 6.0 is supposed to mean "perfection". Clearly, her long program was not perfect. What kind of message does that send?

Please understand that I admire Michelle. She's a classy lady and a fantastic figure skater, but she needs to work within a system that fairly judges her. Don't overscore her and don't underscore her. Score her fairly!

IMHO, of course.

I agree, but the judges need to do that for everyone. Kwan is definitely not the only one who is overmarked at Nationals, and there are many skaters who are undermarked. But then the same thing happens at Worlds for many skaters too (remember Kwan's 4 first place ordinals at 2004 Worlds in the LP?), so I guess it doesn't really matter.

Does this mean Cohen and company need to read the rule books since duh SC went over time at World's? Cohen has recieved 6.0 with a fall. Maybe they fell "perfectly" ? Take a deep breath and repeat after me........"in the old system the numbers were just place holders for the ordinals". If Kwan skates after someone who recieved a 5.9 the only thing left to give her is..... you got it, a 6.0. Now what we all have to look forward to is this....if Kwan gives one of her heart and soul perfect performances under the CoP.............THERE IS NO LIMIT TO HOW HIGH A SCORE THE JUDGES CAN GIVE HER! Kwan and the CoP, who knew?

Please understand that I admire Michelle. She's a classy lady and a fantastic figure skater, but she needs to work within a system that fairly judges her. Don't overscore her and don't underscore her. Score her fairly!

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But it's not Kwans fault if the judges score her incorrectly. Should she a refuse to accept her scores? She is working in the system that is available to her. So, it would be more correct to say "the judges need to score Kwan fairly" and put the blame where it belongs. I love Michelle and think that she is the greatest but even I don't give her the power to give herself the marks she recieves. Since Worlds posters keep harping that Kwan has not embraced the Cop when that is not true. She has spent the last year trying to make her programs CoP friendly. How does having a bad skate as she did in the QR equal refusing to skate under CoP? Why is Kwan the only person who had a bad skate at Worlds being accused of not following the rules? Granted she did not skate the GP these past two years which was perfectly legal...no rules broken there. Look at all of the years she has skated the entire season without a break. Others have had time off because of illness/injury. Not their choice but still a break to rest their bodies. Kwan has skated more events much longer than anyone. If the ISU has now made it a rule that everyone must skate the GP and THEN she decides not to THEN she can be accused of not following the rules. Until then she has done nothing wrong.

SkateFan4Life said:

Please understand that I admire Michelle. She's a classy lady and a fantastic figure skater, but she needs to work within a system that fairly judges her. Don't overscore her and don't underscore her. Score her fairly!

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And which figure skating system in existence now DO fairly judges every skater? I can't seem to think of one...So what if the USFSA have an overzealous lovefest for her? She deservedly won all those 9 national championships. Besides, they probably just want to make up for ALL the time that she was undermarked in international competitions.

Your Point?

I'm not sure what your point is. Michelle has deserved everyone of her National's wins with or without CoP.

Michelle just happens to have a lot of fans. Michelle has earned every national title that she's won.

First off, MK got exactly three sixes for her LP in Portland. When did that become a slew?! I must have missed that memo. :sheesh: /end snark

And I can only speak from what I've seen on TV for any Nats prior to last year in Atlanta (I was there for Atlanta last year and Portland this year), but IMO, Michelle has earned every single one of those titles and belly griping about judging isn't going to change that. I will belly gripe with anyone who's willing to listen about the problems with judging but MK's Nats gold medals are not things that should be debated IMO. Marks are placeholders and that's it, and if they gave a 5.9 to someone before MK skated, which they've done before, then they are in their own right to score MK with a 6.0 if she skates better than the other person. In Atlanta, MK should have been second in the SP, she ended up second, and it doesn't matter what they deducted for (and for the life of me, I do NOT think MK went over her music for the SP there but I could be mistaken) in the old system because they hardly used that anyway. She had the right placement in the end. In Portland, no one outskated her in the LP and she skated last so why not give out a six if they felt the performance was first place worthy? I guess I just don't get it. And while we are talking about judging fairly, were any of the marks at Canadians earned by those skaters or were they unfairly scored too? The scores at ANY country's national championships are ALWAYS going to be different that at an international event. That's just the way it is and it probably always will be. hwell:

BTW-Judges are going to score however they want, new system or not. So more than likely, there are still going to be gripes over unfair judging, just with a different code since we now have points and GOE and PCS and all these news terms. There's always going to be something unfairly judges, its called figure skating and that's just the way it is until the ISU cleans up its own house. :disapp:

One advantage of the CoP is that skaters know what they have been marked down on. For example. IIRC, after Kwan's '04 Nats SP, the commentators said that there was a mandatory deduction for the bobble of 0.2 or 0.3, and a timing deduction was 0.1 from each mark. Kwan's tech marks were consistent with either an 0.3 deduction on the bobble or an 0.2 for the bobble and an 0.1 for the timing; her presentation score also could have encompassed a timing deduction. Other than Dick Button's comments at Worlds, I really can't tell if she was or was not marked down at Nats for going overtime.

Michelle

I agree! Michelle has deserved to win all 9 of her national championships! I also feel as if it is her job to skate and that's it! It's not her fault if the judges seem like they are not watching the same program! Michelle has showed her heart to so many people and really you can't ask for more than that!

Isn't it amazing that overtime on CoP is far less costly than it was under 6.0? a 1 point deduction from the entire score does less damage than deducting .1 from every mark under 6.0. -0.1 from each 6.0 mark could affect many ordinals, and automatically place the skater at a lower level (as it did Kwan in 2004).

It's no wonder there was no uproar when both Lambiel and Cohen were hit with time deductions.

SkateFan4Life said:

Case in point: 2004 US Nationals. Kwan finished her short program several seconds after the end of the music, and she was not marked down for that mistake. Yes, the judges marked her down when she stumbled on her double axel, but she also should have received deductions for skating past the time limit. When Kwan did the same thing at the 2004 Worlds short program - skating past the time limit - the judges nailed her. Kwan and her coach were dumbfounded. Duh. Perhaps they should all read the rule book.

Another case in point: 2005 US Nationals. Kwan made two mistakes in her long prgram - doubling the second planned triple lutz and finishing after the music had stopped. Even she knew she had not skated her best. What did the lamebrain judges do - award her with a slew of 6.0s. Give me a break. OK, this was probably the last competition Michelle will ever compete in with the old 6.0 judging system, but a 6.0 is supposed to mean "perfection". Clearly, her long program was not perfect. What kind of message does that send?

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I agree with the SP error. That was a rookie mistake, not one a skater with 10 years of experience on the international circuit should have made.

As for the 6.0s at 2005 Nats, if you are going to whine about it you should not pick on Kwan only. Kwan was not the only one getting a 6.0s. Johnny, B&A and some other skaters if I remember right did also. At 2004 Nats, Sasha got a 6.0 with a fall. At 2004 Worlds, they were also giving out 6.0s like candy.

Piel said:

Does this mean Cohen and company need to read the rule books since duh SC went over time at World's? Cohen has recieved 6.0 with a fall. Maybe they fell "perfectly" ? Take a deep breath and repeat after me........"in the old system the numbers were just place holders for the ordinals". If Kwan skates after someone who recieved a 5.9 the only thing left to give her is..... you got it, a 6.0. Now what we all have to look forward to is this....if Kwan gives one of her heart and soul perfect performances under the CoP.............THERE IS NO LIMIT TO HOW HIGH A SCORE THE JUDGES CAN GIVE HER! Kwan and the CoP, who knew?



But it's not Kwans fault if the judges score her incorrectly. Should she a refuse to accept her scores? She is working in the system that is available to her. So, it would be more correct to say "the judges need to score Kwan fairly" and put the blame where it belongs. I love Michelle and think that she is the greatest but even I don't give her the power to give herself the marks she recieves. Since Worlds posters keep harping that Kwan has not embraced the Cop when that is not true. She has spent the last year trying to make her programs CoP friendly. How does having a bad skate as she did in the QR equal refusing to skate under CoP? Why is Kwan the only person who had a bad skate at Worlds being accused of not following the rules? Granted she did not skate the GP these past two years which was perfectly legal...no rules broken there. Look at all of the years she has skated the entire season without a break. Others have had time off because of illness/injury. Not their choice but still a break to rest their bodies. Kwan has skated more events much longer than anyone. If the ISU has now made it a rule that everyone must skate the GP and THEN she decides not to THEN she can be accused of not following the rules. Until then she has done nothing wrong.

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Hello . Thanks for being focused & knowing the facts. This is just another thread on how can we bash her. Funny thing is that it has all been said before. & did you notice how the fact that with sasha Splatting on the ice & wobble landings received a 6.0 & Michelle who had not mistakes, no wobbles, falls, WRONG EDGES, etc... I guess some feel that she should have received a 5.6 5.7
The samething should be said when Plushenko at SLC completely missed his Quad Combo & his program came to a complete stop still received 5.9 & . How in the Hell can that happen. Talk about a place marker. Alexei skated 1st & was prefection at it finest & someone had the nerve to give him a 5.7 :scratch: & that was the short. & With the LP No falls but, a Step out on a Quad, Triple, Triple( attemp, Nice attemp) & Doubled a triple Jump & almost came to a complete stop during the straight line foot work. & Once again High marks. & then when alexei skated perfect once again. & received 4 6.0's. Certain people couldn't believe his scores & not to mention they though that he (alexei) should have come in 2nd in the LP. Even with no errors.

My Point is that. Like, you stated. If someone skates & has errors but is still given very high marks. What are they suppose to do when someone comes up later & skates even better. I guess they should be marked down if their name is Kwan because she has received so many high marks in the past.

What about the GPF in 2001. Irnia had a program that was riddled with errors. Wobbles, Popped jumps, just sloppy. & Michelle, a perfect program up until the last second where she added another a Triple Flip or lutz at the end of her program & fell. & came in second to Irinia. Like Dick & Peggy said. talk about a Early christmas gift.


I do hope to see michelle once again on the GP series. It can only help her.

The main question is not Kwan. It is Liang. If she skates all her technical perfectly and given her heartfelt style, will SHE be graded correctly?

Joe

lavender said:

Michelle just happens to have a lot of fans. Michelle has earned every national title that she's won.

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yes and she only seems to care about nats where she receives unrealistic scores is not helping her.

Panther2000 said:

Hello . Thanks for being focused & knowing the facts. This is just another thread on how can we bash her. Funny thing is that it has all been said before. & did you notice how the fact that with sasha Splatting on the ice & wobble landings received a 6.0 & Michelle who had not mistakes, no wobbles, falls, WRONG EDGES, etc... I guess some feel that she should have received a 5.6 5.7
The samething should be said when Plushenko at SLC completely missed his Quad Combo & his program came to a complete stop still received 5.9 & . How in the Hell can that happen. Talk about a place marker. Alexei skated 1st & was prefection at it finest & someone had the nerve to give him a 5.7 :scratch: & that was the short. & With the LP No falls but, a Step out on a Quad, Triple, Triple( attemp, Nice attemp) & Doubled a triple Jump & almost came to a complete stop during the straight line foot work. & Once again High marks. & then when alexei skated perfect once again. & received 4 6.0's. Certain people couldn't believe his scores & not to mention they though that he (alexei) should have come in 2nd in the LP. Even with no errors.

My Point is that. Like, you stated. If someone skates & has errors but is still given very high marks. What are they suppose to do when someone comes up later & skates even better. I guess they should be marked down if their name is Kwan because she has received so many high marks in the past.

What about the GPF in 2001. Irnia had a program that was riddled with errors. Wobbles, Popped jumps, just sloppy. & Michelle, a perfect program up until the last second where she added another a Triple Flip or lutz at the end of her program & fell. & came in second to Irinia. Like Dick & Peggy said. talk about a Early christmas gift.


I do hope to see michelle once again on the GP series. It can only help her.

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please,plushenko has earned every title busting his bones every year. he was injured and had the flu in salt lake just look at all the injuries he has what's the kween excuse? she has rested on her laurels for three seasons and is paying the price now skipping the gp series what's a bad decision. she better do the gp this season or she can kiss a medal in turino goobye

curious said:

yes and she only seems to care about nats where she receives unrealistic scores is not helping her.

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And how would you know what she does or does not care about? I guess she must have confided in you.

Kwan chose to skate less and protect her health and had a poorQR for her first CoP competition. Plushenko chose to skate injured and put off having injuries taken care of.and had to withdraw from Worlds. There is no right or wrong here. It is a personal choice for each athlete. Kwan choosing to protect her health makes her no less an athlete than Plushenko. The nurse in me thinks that Plushenko or anyone else is stupid to skate injured. Competitions and tours missed can be done another time. A hip or knee ruined is pretty much a permanent thing.

Piel said:

Kwan chose to skate less and protect her health and had a poorQR for her first CoP competition. Plushenko chose to skate injured and put off having injuries taken care of.and had to withdraw from Worlds. There is no right or wrong here. It is a personal choice for each athlete. Kwan choosing to protect her health makes her no less an athlete than Plushenko. The nurse in me thinks that Plushenko or anyone else is stupid to skate injured. Competitions and tours missed can be done another time. A hip or knee ruined is pretty much a permanent thing.

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you are right,but not everyone has the choice to skate at nats and worlds only like michell has done for the past four seasons.

Sure they do. May not be options the skater is happy with but no one can force anyone to skate injured. Some federations may not like it or punish the athletes in some way but the athlete still has a choice. They can choose not to skate for a federation that doesn't care about their health. Not Kwan's fault if the USFSA is more caring than the Russian Fed. The Russian Fed. is the bad guy here, don't you think?

So does that mean you are going to hold it over the heads of those skaters who have had that opportunity!?? Maybe it would have helped MK this year as far at knowing more about CoP goes but maybe it also would have injured her somehow. Skaters know what they can and can't do, its just a matter of if they listen to that or not.:scratch:

You can totally tell we are heading towards the off season. I need a nap. :disapp: