Michelle Kwan - Premature Crowning?

curious said:

yes and she only seems to care about nats where she receives unrealistic scores is not helping her.

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Do you ever watch other countries Nationals? I get CBC and Eurosport so I can tell you that ALL federations give scores that typically are much higher for a skater than what they do internationally. Irina for example has been the recipient of a string of 6.0s at Russian Nationals. Yet I don't think she's ever earned more than one 6.0 in any past World championships competitions. (Did she even get one?) And don't even get me started on Canadian Nationals!

Placements are what's important. There is no argument, absolutely none, that would conclude that Kwan didn't earn every one of her nine Nationals titles and five World titles fairly. At Nationals, the 5.9 and 6.0s may be unrealistic compared to international judging panels, but the placements are not. And that's how it goes at Nationals for most countries.

curious said:

please,plushenko has earned every title busting his bones every year. he was injured and had the flu in salt lake just look at all the injuries he has what's the kween excuse? she has rested on her laurels for three seasons and is paying the price now skipping the gp series what's a bad decision. she better do the gp this season or she can kiss a medal in turino goobye

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& Michelle up until that year also skated every year. & She too bad busted her but. So don't go there. I was just using the SLC Socring system at that time asn an example of the response I was giving to someone else. & By her checking out of the past 3 years( The GP series hasn't started yet for this year) has hurt her. However, even with her stripping away her long progam until there was almost nothing left but bone. & Her missing in action was still She just missed the podium.
& More important,YOu missed the point of my post. The statment was about place holding with The old system. PLUSH regardless of his cold, Flu or whatever, Missed an entire Element with his quad combo & still was given high marks. The omission of the combo was looked over. He was in 4th yes, But, he still received high markes with a massive error. & with the LP ( MY POINT WAS) a few mistakes & he received still high scores. & when it was Alexei turn to skate & With out mistake( Low landing on his 3Sal) but an error free program. He had to get 6.0's. And fans couldn't see how he could get 6.0's with No mistakes what so ever. & All they had to do was take a look at the Plushenko's scores to see why he had to get 6.0' The samething just about happen in Nationals back in either 2003 or 2004. Sasha once again had a Sloppy error ridden program & received high artistic marks. Yes, she is very artistic. However, with Error in a program how can you get 5.9's. & give lower marks to a skater who is not only CLEAN, but passionate & ON that night.

The post was about a few certain events in the past few years. Everyone & their mother knows that michelle has been MIA. However, She wasn't given anything. Sasha in the past few years has come close. But has never been able to close the deal at Nationals.

I do agree though, that if Michelle is MIA this coming season. Unless, everyone & their dog has a meltdown. Michelle won't see the podium. She can't go wrong with doing the series this year.

& By the way. Michelle kept herself off of the podium. had she skated her QR like she did with her LP ( Even with the mistake) she is your bronze medal winner.

The Post was not about Plush & Alexei. They were just used as an example about placement holders. Sasha & Michelle were already being used. So I used the next most obvious & Biggest skating event in recent memory.

curious said:

please,plushenko has earned every title busting his bones every year. he was injured and had the flu in salt lake just look at all the injuries he has what's the kween excuse? she has rested on her laurels for three seasons and is paying the price now skipping the gp series what's a bad decision. she better do the gp this season or she can kiss a medal in turino goobye

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Since you constantly brought up the injury and/or sickness of some skaters (I saw you in another thread). And based on the marks those judges gave out through out seasons and competetions. I would say it looked like the game now somewhat become who has the sadest story running. Judges tended to lower their expectation to those skaters with the sadest story running, then when they dose skate reasonable well enough, judges gave them high inflate marks.

mzheng said:

Since you constantly brought up the injury and/or sickness of some skaters (I saw you in another thread). And based on the marks those judges gave out through out seasons and competetions. I would say it looked like the game now somewhat become who has the sadest story running. Judges tended to lower their expectation to those skaters with the sadest story running, then when they dose skate reasonable well enough, judges gave them high inflate marks.

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michell kwan can skip another gp series that's her choice and yes,she took herself off the podium not the judges like some people have suggested at other boards.

mzheng said:

Since you constantly brought up the injury and/or sickness of some skaters (I saw you in another thread). And based on the marks those judges gave out through out seasons and competetions. I would say it looked like the game now somewhat become who has the sadest story running. Judges tended to lower their expectation to those skaters with the sadest story running, then when they dose skate reasonable well enough, judges gave them high inflate marks.

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curious said:

michell kwan can skip another gp series that's her choice and yes,she took herself off the podium not the judges like some people have suggested at other boards.

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& those people are WRONG. Michelle herself knows this. & With Class she has not said one word dissing anyone or saying that the judges wanted this or that person to win because they were in their own country & :boohoo: like others do or did when things did not go their way. She herself said that she was just Awful. She makes no excuses. Just like at nationals ( Eventhough it was not her best performance at nationals. ) she herself once again stated that she skated tight & couldn't feel it. The pressure to tie the record got to her.& she closed up. She skated clean but unattached. She made no excuses. Just stated what everyone already knew. She did not skate well. & Yes, as a Michelle fan I do realize as with ALL OTHER SKATERS FANS, some refuse to believe that the earth is ROUND. & will make excuses until the cows come home. But, every skater has their fanatics. Being that Michelle has a Massive fans base & such. I guess it is an easy mark.

curious said:

michell kwan can skip another gp series that's her choice and yes,she took herself off the podium not the judges like some people have suggested at other boards.

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What took Michelle off the podium is her failure to land cleanly the same triple jumps that she landed at Nats. I'm sorry, but I just can't buy that Kwan's failure to do the GP had anything to do with her placement. First, if she skated the same QR under the old system, and was given a significantly higher placement, everyone would be yelling how she was "held up"; the QR was (in Kwan's words) "terrible", and didn't deserve high marks under any system. Second, Kwan came in third in both the SP and the FS; if she landed the triple salcow, she would have medaled. Again, the problem was a jump, not failing to do the GP or having a bad program. Third, Shizuka Arakawa and Joannie Rochette did very well in the GP, and had COP friendly programs, but they bombed worse than Michelle. IMHO, the only thing that Kwan's failure to do the GP might have done is put her in a better position for Olys than Plush, Zhao Hungbo or Sasha (due to her groin injury)

curious said:

you are right,but not everyone has the choice to skate at nats and worlds only like michell has done for the past four seasons.

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And your animosity towards Kwan is quite evident. You know, instead of blaming Kwan about how she could get away with not doing the GP but Plushenko couldn't, maybe you should mark your catty remarks toward the ISU instead.

attyfan said:

What took Michelle off the podium is her failure to land cleanly the same triple jumps that she landed at Nats.

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That's one possibility. The other is that she could have made up the fall on the 3S in the LP by ensuring that she had higher levels on her spins, spiral, and footwork, like Jeff Buttle did.

attyfan said:

I'm sorry, but I just can't buy that Kwan's failure to do the GP had anything to do with her placement. First, if she skated the same QR under the old system, and was given a significantly higher placement, everyone would be yelling how she was "held up"; the QR was (in Kwan's words) "terrible", and didn't deserve high marks under any system.

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Last year, under 6.0, her quali round skate was even worse than it was in Moscow, and she was held up to skate in the final group in the SP, ending in 3rd instead of between 5th and 6th. Under CoP, she got the scores she deserved for the quali round and did not skate in the last group for the SP.

attyfan said:

Second, Kwan came in third in both the SP and the FS; if she landed the triple salcow, she would have medaled. Again, the problem was a jump, not failing to do the GP or having a bad program.

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Or not enough alternate difficulty to compensate for the fall.

attyfan said:

Third, Shizuka Arakawa and Joannie Rochette did very well in the GP, and had COP friendly programs, but they bombed worse than Michelle.

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Arakawa, Rochette, and Kwan had close to the same success (or lack thereof) in the qualis. Arakawa and Rochette bombed in the LP. Kwan didn't.

CoP doesn't hold up bombs or partial bombs as much as 6.0 did last year for Kostner in the LP, where, after landing a beautiful 3F/3T/2R in LP, she unravelled. Under 6.0, after landing a great 3T/3T and a nice 3Lu/2T, Rochette might have gone up a placement after the LP, like Kostner did last year, despite the meltdown afterwards. Under 6.0, with her opening combination, Kostner this year might have won the silver, instead of barely nipping out Kwan for the bronze.

attyfan said:

IMHO, the only thing that Kwan's failure to do the GP might have done is put her in a better position for Olys than Plush, Zhao Hungbo or Sasha (due to her groin injury)

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Or it might have put her in a worse position for the Olympics than Kostner, Totmianina/Marinin, Belbin/Agosto, Petrova/Tikhonov, Zhang/Zhang, Lambiel, or Buttle.

Arakawa, Rochette, and Kwan had close to the same success (or lack thereof) in the qualis. Arakawa and Rochette bombed in the LP.

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That maybe true, but it doesn't take away the fact that Arakawa and Tarasova got totally different calls at Worlds than they did all year in the GP for the same exact elements.

People keep saying how Kwan left the door open but not making her program more code-friendly, but I think it was just as code-friendly as most of the other programs that were being rewarded. The only place where Kwan left herself open was doing 2 level 1 spins in the LP when she could have easily done level 2 ones. I think had Kwan skated to a program that people actually liked with more emotional music, her PCS would have gone up considerably.

Anyway, Kwan still did well for herself considering how many people keep saying how unprepared her programs were for the Code.

hockeyfan228 said:

... Last year, under 6.0, her quali round skate was even worse than it was in Moscow, and she was held up to skate in the final group in the SP, ending in 3rd instead of between 5th and 6th. Under CoP, she got the scores she deserved for the quali round and did not skate in the last group for the SP. ..."

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Was there a gun at the judges' heads forcing them to hold her up if her QR in Dortmund was that bad? Couldn't the judges, if they had wanted to, use her PCS scores to hold her up in Moscow? It seems to me that the difference is in the willingness (or lack thereof) of the judges to hold her up, not the judging system.

Or it might have put her in a worse position for the Olympics than Kostner, Totmianina/Marinin, Belbin/Agosto, Petrova/Tikhonov, Zhang/Zhang, Lambiel, or Buttle.

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Lambiel did one GP event in the past three years; he has had two knee surgeries. I believe, also, that Kostner missed some GP events du to injury. Totmianina/Marinin certainly missed the GP due to injury.

At the very least, this shows that any connection between the failure to do the GP and Kwan's placement is speculative, at best.

I think that Kwan has not yet committed herself to Torino; after two heartbreaks, it is sensible that she is waiting to decide about risking a third. IMHO, Kwan did not want to take the increased risk of injury in pursuit of an Olys that she might not attend.

hockeyfan228 said:

That's one possibility. The other is that she could have made up the fall on the 3S in the LP by ensuring that she had higher levels on her spins, spiral, and footwork, like Jeff Buttle did.

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I do not see this at all.

I have to go with Attyfan on this one. When they asked famous bank robber Willie Hutton why he robbed banks, he answered, "Because that's where the money is." Michelle lost 4.0 points by falling on her Salchow. (Base 5.0 including last-half bonus, minus 3.0 GOE, minus 1.00 fall deduction.)

Lets say she tried to make this up by upgrading every single one of her spins.

Flying sit spin: Level 1 to level 2, goes from 2.0 to 2.3. Gain of 0.3 points.

Camel spin: Level 1 to level 2, goes from 1.20 to 1.60. Gain of 0.4 points.

First combo spin, level 2 to level 3, goes from 2.50 to 3.00. Gain of 0.5 points.

Last combo spin, level 2 to level 3, goes from 3.00 to 3.5. Gain of 0.5 points.

Grand total for upgrading all spin elements: 1.7 points.

Double that and you still haven't made up for the fall on the Salchow.

Conclusion: Land your jumps, go home with the medal.

Hockeyfan said:

Last year, under 6.0, her quali round skate was even worse than it was in Moscow

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Really? Well, you were there, I wasn't, so I will take your word for it. I know she had one fall in Dortmund, and an uninspired skate. But did she really land only 3 triples, like she did in Moscow?

Hockeyfan said:

Or not enough alternate difficulty to compensate for the fall.

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Again, I do not see any way these points can add up to enough to amount to a hill of beans. Her footwork segment was already a level three.

True, Buttle got second without a quad and with mistakes on two jumps. But everyone below him had mistakes on jumps, too.

Mathman

Ogre Mage said:

I agree with the SP error. That was a rookie mistake, not one a skater with 10 years of experience on the international circuit should have made.

As for the 6.0s at 2005 Nats, if you are going to whine about it you should not pick on Kwan only. Kwan was not the only one getting a 6.0s. Johnny, B&A and some other skaters if I remember right did also. At 2004 Nats, Sasha got a 6.0 with a fall. At 2004 Worlds, they were also giving out 6.0s like candy.

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Ogre, I am NOT whining about any of this! I can't believe the snide, rude attitude taken by so many of you. Why can't you understand that people are entitled to opinions? The fact remains, like it or not, that Michelle Kwan had not competed with the COP - she came into Worlds with no experience with the new system. Frankly, the World Championships are simply not the place to "learn" the new system, in my opinion. The Grand Prix events gave everyone a great opportunity to learn about the system - to see what moved received the most points, etc. IMHO, it was a bad judgement call for Michelle.

And, honestly, guys, I can't believe the anger and outrage that some of you show when you respond to posts - not just my posts, but any posts. Good grief, take it down a notch, please.

SkateFan4Life said:

Ogre, I am NOT whining about any of this! I can't believe the snide, rude attitude taken by so many of you. Why can't you understand that people are entitled to opinions? The fact remains, like it or not, that Michelle Kwan had not competed with the COP - she came into Worlds with no experience with the new system. Frankly, the World Championships are simply not the place to "learn" the new system, in my opinion. The Grand Prix events gave everyone a great opportunity to learn about the system - to see what moved received the most points, etc. IMHO, it was a bad judgement call for Michelle.

And, honestly, guys, I can't believe the anger and outrage that some of you show when you respond to posts - not just my posts, but any posts. Good grief, take it down a notch, please.

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I agree that maybe some of the posts can be construed as being outrageous, but you shouldn't push all of the points that posters who disagreed with you made aside just because you don't like their tone. IMO, if you read back, you would have seen that many of us have made valid points.

Also, if you're going to go head strong in a topic like this where everyone and their grandmother has an opinion, then you're going to need to get thick skin and take strong dissent,. otherwise don't post on debatable topics.

SkateFan4Life said:

Frankly, the World Championships are simply not the place to "learn" the new system, in my opinion. The Grand Prix events gave everyone a great opportunity to learn about the system - to see what moved received the most points, etc. IMHO, it was a bad judgement call for Michelle.

.

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IYO, only. Fortunately Michelle dose not compete with your body and mentality. she made her own decition. She lives with it with no regret.

I totally agree with Attfan and Mathman that the root cause of her not winning a medal at the worlds neither was her CoP non friendly LP (comunist propagating game on internet disscussion boards that her program was empty, her skating is slow, her jump is small, etc. dosn't make it true); nor was her diddn't compete in GPs. It was like Mathman said she skated at wrong time of the month, so she felt cramp out there couldn't land some of her jumps in qual and lp. end of story.

SkateFan4Life said:

And, honestly, guys, I can't believe the anger and outrage that some of you show when you respond to posts - not just my posts, but any posts. Good grief, take it down a notch, please.

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Hey guys - Let's take some good advice from SkateFan4Life. Opinions are fine but they can be worded with a touch of class and not with a touch of garbage.

Joe

Mathman said:

Conclusion: Land your jumps, go home with the medal.

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But even with a clean 3s the color of her medal would have been bronze. Michelle was 14 points behind Sasha and 22 points behind Irina. If she wants gold, and I can't imagine why she wouldn't, she is going to need to accumulate points in the small areas as well. Also, Michelle only beat Fumie by 4 points.

brad640 said:

But even with a clean 3s the color of her medal would have been bronze. Michelle was 14 points behind Sasha and 22 points behind Irina. If she wants gold, and I can't imagine why she wouldn't, she is going to need to accumulate points in the small areas as well. Also, Michelle only beat Fumie by 4 points.

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But that's taking in consideration Kwan's awful QR (where she made dumb mistakes that she didn't do in the LP...like doing a 3 jump combo even if you double your triple). Comparing the SP and LP scores are more accurate if you're going to do a comparison like that.

I am still not convinced. Irina landed 7 clean triples, with so-so presentation, and they gave her component scores through the roof.

Sasha landed 7 sort-of-clean triples, with somewhat shaky presentation, and they gave her very high component scores.

Michelle messed up two jumps, with pretty good presentation, and they gave her lower component scores.

That's why Michelle was 14 points behind Sasha and 22 points behind Irina. It's all there in the protocols.

To me this says, land the jumps, go home with gold.

MM

Kwan landed the jumps in the SP and still got 3rd.