GP Series: Is it really THAT exhausting?

Doggygirl said:

Many athletes in many international sports handle grueling travel, training, etc. for a competitive season each year. I don't consider National Championships and World Championships (two events) to be a viable sporting event season. Not if the "sport" needs a fan base that results in financial opportunities both short and long term for the competitors.

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Many athletes are on World Cup circuits, with extensive travel, but that travel tends to be local, no more than 1/2 days drive or a short plane hop, mostly in Europe, and they are on well-organized circuits, on teams with management that are responsible for their equipment and setting up training facilities. This is the case for most winter sports, particularly skiing (Nordic and Alpine). Performance over the course of a season is reflected in the standings, not a relatively small 3-4 tries. Lower level skaters that compete in local competitions and regionals are not crossing continents three to four times a season. Professional teams have everything taken care of, including private and charter flights, and if a basketball player, for example, has a sluggish start, it's not the end of the game, while for a figure skater, who has 2.5 minutes to establish him/herself in the SP or OD, it is.

I don't think it's the number of competitions that is at issue for GP, but the type of travel that's required to compete, particularly for seeded skaters.

hockeyfan228 said:

Because it's been done before doesn't make it any more or less exhausting or ideal.

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No, but it makes me wonder why there were never big complaints until now. Perhaps the skaters thought it was exhausting but it was worth the effort. And what does this come down to? Prize money again...

hockeyfan228 said:

It's the interruption to training, particularly due to travel up to four times across three continents in the course of three-month period, that is the biggest burden of the GP.

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And again, been there, done that before. I have no doubt that the skaters are willing to do it, as they've shown in the past, if they are motivated. Besides, training, training and training isn't the only thing that is part of the skaters' preparation. They need the events. It's not the same thing to skate your program perfectly in practice and to skate it perfectly in front of an audience and judges.

An example, Kwan. She missed the GP because, according to what she said to the press, she wanted to study the new system and train and prepare well for the big events. And what was the result? A less stellar showing at Nationals and subpar performances at Worlds. I don't want to start a discussion about her, this is one example of a skater who stayed home to train and didn't do as well as, for example, Irina Slutskaya who had a long season and showed up very strong at Worlds, eventually winning the title. Doesn't seem all that obvious to me how not doing the GP is better for their performances...

Doggygirl said:

Many athletes in many international sports handle grueling travel, training, etc. for a competitive season each year. I don't consider National Championships and World Championships (two events) to be a viable sporting event season. Not if the "sport" needs a fan base that results in financial opportunities both short and long term for the competitors.

Up and coming skaters participate in a full competitive season which involves local, sectional, regional, etc. competitions to finally arrive at Nationals, with hopes for World team qualification. The top tier skaters get a "bye" from all local / regional events which should allow them to participate the international competitive events.

If the sport of figure skating is such that competing in more than two serious competitive events per year presents a significant (more than any other sport) risk of serious injury, then this "sport" should go away just because it is way too dangerous.

DG

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ITA with this post. And I will add, I would say the skaters themselves, the 90% of them you don't hear in articles and interviews, don't see anything wrong with their season. But fans always try to find reasons why their favorites do what they do (and we're talking about a minority, the big stars, who make lots of money and win titles). So suddenly the GP series is too exhausting that they can't show up at Worlds prepared. Please. They're skaters, athletes. Not porcelain dolls.

Sandra wrote this article back in 8/98

http://cbs.sportsline.com/u/women/skating/aug98/loosemore8298.htm

Actually skipping GP is disadvantage to a skater, b/c s/he does not get the judges feedback and attention.

RIskatingfan said:

Besides, training, training and training isn't the only thing that is part of the skaters' preparation. They need the events. It's not the same thing to skate your program perfectly in practice and to skate it perfectly in front of an audience and judges.

An example, Kwan. She missed the GP because, according to what she said to the press, she wanted to study the new system and train and prepare well for the big events. And what was the result? A less stellar showing at Nationals and subpar performances at Worlds.

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I'm not arguing that there shouldn't be a Grand Prix, or that it's not important for skaters to compete in the fall. I think the structure of the Grand Prix series at the behest of the strongest skating Federations is detrimental to the skaters. If, for example, the ISU is worried about filling seats at the events, why do they think it's more important for three seeded skaters to show up at TEB, for example, instead of four-five French entries? NA TV is only going to show 3-4 skaters, not the entire field, so it's not as if the TV audience will be bored, which it does get, seeing the same skaters and programs 3-4 times over the course of a GP season. European TV isn't rushing to broadcast these events.

What's really astonishing to me is how badly the networks structure the GP broadcasts, apart from Disney-owned TV networks pushing Kwan. For example, COI had already announced Pang/Tong and Totmianina/Marinin on tour. There were ample opportunities to dedicate some "fluff" and interest in these skaters, which only happened because of T/M's fall at Skate America. T/M train in Chicago. P/T have agents in the US, and were the featured guests at the farewell dinner on the Colonial Travel tour (which T/M have been in the past), along with Kimmie Meissner and Paul Wylie. There's synergy in marketing the sport that GP broadcasts could exploit, because presenting GP events in a vacuum doesn't meet any of the ISU goals in holding the series in the first place, which is not primarily to give skaters the opportunity to compete.

And for all of the screaming, particularly around SLC Olympics, of how US audiences pull for Canadians automatically, there has been no fluff whatsoever on Jeff Buttle and Joannie Rochette, both of whom had exemplary GP seasons, or Cynthia Pfaneuf, Marcoux/Buntin, even on Richard Gautier and his stable of pairs, including the move by Zagorska/Siudek, familiar from years of GP broadcasts, to Canada.

In my opinion, GP as currently structured is a waste of opportunity to build audiences and a burden on the top skaters. If it comes down to prize money being cut, then, in the past, the trade off must have been worth it, when now, the top athletes are finding that it is not and there are other opportunities to skate. The USFS countered with cheezefests, which, however diluted, gave the skaters the opportunity to perform their LP's in front of an international panel of judges. Why the ISU allowed that to happen, particularly the event that conflicts with GP, is beyond me.

I don't understand this crap about having to do the GP series in order to qualify for Worlds, Euros, 4CC, etc. They are seperate competitions, and a skater should be allowed to compete at the big championships as long as they are deemed qualified by their federation. It is their choice, their career. The GP series have never been mandatory before...hell the GP series isn't even 10 years old yet when it first begun as a made-for-tv ploy where it's final has gone through many stupid formats to get more viewers.

I think people are making too much of a big deal over the "complaints" (I haven't really heard anyone actually complaining) we had this season. The reason why people are making such a big deal over it this season is because Michelle, Sasha, and Plushenko originally opted out and the ISU were scared that this was going to be a new trend by established skaters. If it was smaller skaters, nobody would be complaining at all.

I don't think the argument of the GP being good or not is even relevant in this case. It's about the individual rights for the skaters to choose their own schedule and it's about the federations' power compared to the IS's power.

I think if many of you need to read posts in both threads about the GP regarding how difficult it will be to enforce a rule that makes the GPs mandatory.

Eeyora said:

Has anyone here done th Grand Prix themselves to prove how exhausting or unexhausting it is?

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Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Maybe a comment from a skater or a few in an article will answer this burning question?

hockeyfan228 said:

If, for example, the ISU is worried about filling seats at the events, why do they think it's more important for three seeded skaters to show up at TEB, for example, instead of four-five French entries? NA TV is only going to show 3-4 skaters, not the entire field, so it's not as if the TV audience will be bored, which it does get, seeing the same skaters and programs 3-4 times over the course of a GP season. European TV isn't rushing to broadcast these events.

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I can speak only by myself but I find "international" competitions far more interesting. I'm sure the French audience enjoys having their skaters performing in TEB (which they do anyway because each GP host usually has many nationals skaters), but I'm sure they'd be thrilled to have Weir skating there. And if the events aren't broadcasted, well, that would be a bigger reason for the local audience to see the other skaters they don't get to see at their national events.

Oh and on the travelling issue, one of the things high profile athletes always mention as "best stuff about their job" is to travel and visit different countries, so it's not all bad Not all skaters want to skate at home either. Joannie Rochette didn't skate at Skate Canada this season because she didn't want to.

hockeyfan228 said:

In my opinion, GP as currently structured is a waste of opportunity to build audiences and a burden on the top skaters. If it comes down to prize money being cut, then, in the past, the trade off must have been worth it, when now, the top athletes are finding that it is not and there are other opportunities to skate. The USFS countered with cheezefests, which, however diluted, gave the skaters the opportunity to perform their LP's in front of an international panel of judges. Why the ISU allowed that to happen, particularly the event that conflicts with GP, is beyond me.

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I'm all for allowing skaters to skate in events other than the ISU competitions. I also know that only some can do it because these depend on invitations, it's a priviledge. But, IMO, competitions should be the priority, these are eligible skaters after all. It's been this way ever since the series started. Other skaters in the past have been forbidden of exchanging GPs for other events. I just don't think it's fair that say, skater A who is priviledged because he can skate in the GP and another event (where he can get more exposure and make more $$), turns down the GP event, which will affect sales of the GP venue, ratings on TV and TV contracts, among other stuff... which will not be benefitial for anyone nor the sport in general. I like the GP as a circuit which all skaters get to do. I just don't want to see it turned in a circuit that less ranked skaters do, while the "stars" do another circuit of cheesefests and shows.

I understand you want to see a "different" GP and I'm not against such thing because with less TV ratings, less people in the venues and less interest in skating in general, things have to be organized differently. What I don't want is to see LESS skating (because that doesn't benefit anyone) and see the GP gone or reformulated for the wrong reasons. And it seems to me there is many people picking on the series for the wrong reasons.

VIETgrlTerifa said:

The GP series have never been mandatory before...

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No, but in case of conflict of events, the GP is prioritary. Plushenko wasn't the first skater "forbidden" of skating in a show for skipping the GP. Others, like Stojko and Yagudin went through the same already, in the past.

VIETgrlTerifa said:

I think people are making too much of a big deal over the "complaints" (I haven't really heard anyone actually complaining) we had this season. The reason why people are making such a big deal over it this season is because Michelle, Sasha, and Plushenko originally opted out and the ISU were scared that this was going to be a new trend by established skaters. If it was smaller skaters, nobody would be complaining at all.

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With this, I totally agree.

VIETgrlTerifa said:

I don't think the argument of the GP being good or not is even relevant in this case. It's about the individual rights for the skaters to choose their own schedule and it's about the federations' power compared to the IS's power.

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With this, I don't. There's rules everywhere and each worker has to follow them. How many times don't I wish I could have a different schedule and suit it to my wishes.

I don't think its so much injuries or competiting that is exhausting, but the travel. With only 4 days between most of the GP competions, and the possibility of having to travel over several time zones, with little rest or training time in between I'm sure its pretty tiring. I get tired travellig 6 hours in the same time zone and I don't have to go out and skate.

I'm of the opinion, I think, that the GP isn't such a big, exhausting deal. I think amateur skaters who are going to complain about it should opt out of the cheesefests and shows instead.

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I don't think cheesefests or shows have anywhere near the physical demand. For the most part its US skaters in the cheese, and so there isn't much travel demand. Touring isnt competitvie, nor is it during the season , so I don't think it factors.

attyfan said:

Wasn't Kwan the only one who skipped the GP before they reduced the prize money? I know she skipped it during the '98/'99 season, as well as the past three years. I agree that Kwan is an exception. After all, how many seeded skaters today (besides Kwan) were doing the GP events (SA, SC, etc) before they were turned into a series?

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If I am not mistaken. Michelle had a fractured foot. She did not opt out of the Series. She had a very very good reason for her absence. With nationals & the olympics just months awasy. What was she to do. Skate with abroken foot( Which she did) during the 1998 olympics.

My lord what will people comeup with becase they don't like her. She opted out of the past 3 years. When, they told her that she had to skate during the season she did. She did skate America as a favor in 2003.

I think that she should skate like everyone else( as long as she is not injured). It can only help her in the long run.

Before the 2003-2004 season, travel wasn't such a big issue, because the first two competitions were in NA, 3 were in Europe (Bofrost, Lalique, Russia) and the last one was in Japan. The GPF was usually in NA or Europe.

But then Bofrost got kicked out of the GP, replaced by China, and the grueling travel started, because in the first season, it was SA, SC, CoC, Lalique, CoR and NHK. Skaters who had to travel from NA to China or from China to Lalique had a hard time. As I recall, there were several injuries that season and many of the skaters in the early events didn't go to CoR and NHK.

Last season, as chuckm pointed out, the arrangement was somewhat more reasonable: SA, SC, NHK, CoC, TEB, CoR. But the GPF was in China, which was hard on the NA and Euros skaters. I think skaters like Joannie Rochette and Johnny Weir were truly worn out having 3 events in quick succession. Joannie Rochette went on to peak at Skate Canada, but that was followed by a disastrous Worlds, and the injury Weir incurred at CoR kept him off the podium at Worlds. Plushenko did two events, basically back to back, and that seemed to have contributed to his eventual withdrawal from Worlds.

This season, we're back to the totally illogical juxtaposition of the GP events, and of course the skaters don't get to at least provide input on their preferences. The GPF is once again in Asia, right before holidays. Maybe the Asian countries do not celebrate the holidays, but with the GPF in Asia, they don't have to travel very far. The holidays are a time when North Americans and Europeans traditionally like to spend time with their families, and this time is very much disrupted by having to travel halfway around the world--two years in a row. The holidays are followed immediately by Nationals, Regionals (4CC, Euros) and Torino.

It would be really awful if Torino turns out to be a splatfest like Men's Worlds, only in all 4 disciplines, but this is a real possibility given the schedule the skaters are faced with.

Different cultures have different balance points between the value of individual freedom and the necessity for enforcing authority. "I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" -- Michelle Kwan.

"Gladly" -- Speedy.

Hockeyfan, I don't think it is fair to give the GP winners an exemption from the qualifying round at worlds, because not every skater at worlds has the opportunity to do the GP. (Although that might be the one offer that would entice Michelle, LOL.)

Frankly, I don't get it. One monkey don't stop no show. If Michelle doesn't show up for the Eric Bompard, so what? Send Alyssa Czysny Everybody benefits, and the folks in France don't care anything about Michelle anyway.

MM

BUNK on the "grueling travel schedule" theory.

First off, I have no idea why any skater would agree to a "non-scoring" GP event, especially if their two "scoring" events represent a grueling travel schedule. I thought that third event was optional - but I'm not sure. So please come with eggs and tomatoes if I'm wrong on that.

So here's how the Grueling International Travel schedule goes for the most elite skaters.

1) No local/ section / regional type events because they have a bye.
2) 2 GP competitions, at least one of which seems pretty much guaranteed, for the top skaters, to be in the same country or closest country where they are a "fan draw" for the comp. (Irina COR, Shiz / Ando NHK, Joannie SC, MK& Sasha SA(if they had skated) etc.)
3) One GP comp out of the country. It doesn't surprise me when the top seeded skaters get their second one pretty close to home. Like SA and SC are definitely on the same half of the globe, and I believe several top skaters from US and Canada got those events.
4) GPF. For the top skaters, this is potentially the second competition for the season where extensive travel might be involved.
5) Euro's / 4CC's. It seems that Euro's is taken seriously by the European community, whereas 4CC's is definately NOT taken seriously by the USFSA. So the top US skaters rarely participate, and get a training / travel / rest break here that the top European skaters don't get.
6) World's or Oly's, in an Oly year. For the top US skaters, this is probably their 2nd or 3rd competition outside of North America.

So the way I see it.... For the top tier US skaters, how exactly is 2 or 3 required non-North American events "grueling travel?" Most retirees I know would love (and many do!) travel internationally 2 - 3 times a year because they WANT to. And they are not exactly 16 - 26 years old anymore.

I personally think if the travel is so grueling, that the Euro and Asia skaters have it the worst. For the European skaters, they have that additional Euro championship that is taken seriously. And if they want to make Cheesefest money, they have to come to the US for that, totally aside from the GP and Euro comps. The Asian federations seem to use 4CC sometimes as a "skate off" making it important to their 2 - 4 place skaters, which the US does not seem to do. And the same goes for Asian skaters in terms of making money on the Cheesefest circuit in the US, while still maintaining status as serious international competitors through the ISU and their own in-country competitions. The Cheesefests are extra international travel for them - which is not the case for US based Cheesefest participants.

Honestly, so much of this "porcelain doll" stuff really seems to support those folks who don't believe FS is actually a competitive sport. And I give the athletes a whole lot more credit than that. For the majority anyway, I suspect if they can master moves like 3/3's and quads on the ice, that a few international trips every year should be low on the complaint list.

DG

euterpe said:

It would be really awful if Torino turns out to be a splatfest like Men's Worlds, only in all 4 disciplines, but this is a real possibility given the schedule the skaters are faced with.

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It's this kind of assumption that bugs the heck outta me. Splatfests only occur because of the GP events? And if we go back over the years, those truly bad competitions were of course due to the GP...? And Men's event in Dortmund was a superb competition because there was no GP that season?

Joannie Rochette couldn't have bombed her LP at Worlds because of all the pressure. No, we know for sure it was because of the GP. Johnny Weir's foot injury at Worlds was an old injury that he had had over the summer. But no, it was only product of the GP. Plushenko has been delaying surgery year after year. It finally reached a point when he had to withdrew at Worlds. But of course, it was the GP this season that made him do it. Yes, I'm sure all injuries and health problems are ONLY because of the GP, it's unheard of that skaters actually get injured at practice.

That said, I agree that scheduling the events differently would be better.

Hi DG. First, I think there are two reasons why some skaters elect to do a thrid, non-scoring, event. One is to win some extra prize money and the other is to prevent their competitors from earning points towards the GP final.

I always thought that was a cool aspect of the competition. Let's say you have 13 points already in your two scoring events, which puts you on the bubble for the final. Your chief competitor got third in her first scoring event and this is her second. If you can beat her, you don't get any points yourself, but you can keep her off the podium and stop her from gaining enough points to take your spot!

Now that's what I'm talking about! That's competition!

So...the skaters who feel that way should do the Grand Prix and those who don't feel that way shouldn't.

What is more boring than a so-called competition where the athletes don't want to be there in the first place?

Mathman

Doggygirl said:

First off, I have no idea why any skater would agree to a "non-scoring" GP event, especially if their two "scoring" events represent a grueling travel schedule. I thought that third event was optional - but I'm not sure.

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The third event is optional. They get no points, but they can test the program in front of judges again and, of course, get the prize money. And for the poor skaters that don't like to travel, I sure remember that a couple of years ago or so, it was certainly not abnormal to accept the third assignment. This year Johnny Weir also chose to do his third assignment. Nobody forced him to, but he chose it this way.

And ITA with the rest of your post.

OT, but I totally disagree that the men's event at Moscow was a splatfest. OK, maybe it was a splatfest, but it was the best men's worlds in a long time. All of the top skaters brought something unique to the mix. It was a fantastic show.

Mathman

PS. OK, Dortmund was even better, especially the contest for third place between Lindemann and Lambiel....

(Ignore this post.)

I do not understand this debate at all. The skaters that like to travel and compete in Grand Prix events, and who think that this is beneficial to their careers, by all means let them travel and compete in Grand Prix events and benefit their careers.

The skaters that don't like to travel and compete in Grand Prix events, let them stay home and the heck with them.

What are we arguing about?

MM

Mathman said:

I do not understand this debate at all. The skaters that like to travel and compete in Grand Prix events, and who think that this is beneficial to their careers, by all means let them travel and compete in Grand Prix events and benefit their careers.

The skaters that don't like to travel and compete in Grand Prix events, let them stay home and the heck with them.

What are we arguing about?

MM

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IMO here is what the argument is about. These are not necessarily my feelings about the GP.

1. Fans like to see their favorites compete and feel cheated when their favorite is not in a competition.

2. For lots of fans this means the big name skaters.

3. There seems to be two sides on this next one...
a. Fans like to see their favorites skate against the top competitors rather than the up and comers or the more seasoned skaters who don't finish near the top. A win by their favorites is more satisfying if it happens to be over one of the top skaters. Example: the "It's not fair that Michelle only skates Nationals and Worlds when Irina skates the GP" camp.

OR

b. Fans whose favorites rarely win prefer their favorites to skate against the up and comers and/or less decorated skaters. This helps assure a win for thier favorites and a win is a win is a win. Example: the "It's not fair for Michelle to keep skating, she's been around too long and needs to retire so Sasha can win" camp.

This same line of thought may also appear as......
"Michelle won because she was more rested from not doing the GP."

"Michelle lost because she didn't have the experience of skating her programs in the GP."