Is the Pope a Catholic?

The Fruit of the Spirit...

Just a comment from the "spiritually confused" segment.

I was raised in the Methodist faith, but have not found a "church home" as an adult. But I'm always seeking!

One of the most powerful (for me) teachings I have ever listened to is a tape series called The Fruit of the Spirit. It was produced by a non-denominational Christian Minister. It all ties to biblical passages referencing "you will know them by their fruit."

This series talks about the ways we can strive to improve in "real everyday life" in the following areas. And NOT just towards God (although that is important), but towards ourselves and each other:

Love
Faithfulness
Patience
Kindness
Goodness
Peace
Humility
Self-Control
Joy

I am not familiar with specific Catholic doctrines on the subject of the Pope. I do not believe any of our lives are sin free - not even the Pope's life. But if a human life can be considered on the merits of the nine "fruits of the spirit" mentioned above, then the Pope certainly bore a considerable amount of "good fruit" through his actions and deeds in his human life.

If only all of us could be half as imperfect as he was. My thoughts and prayers go out to all Catholics and non-Catholics who recognize the contributions of this great man, and who are mourning his loss.

DG

Thank You Mrs. Doggy!

"But if a human life can be considered on the merits of the nine "fruits of the spirit" mentioned above, then the Pope certainly bore a considerable amount of "good fruit" through his actions and deeds in his human life."

Doggygirl

Thank you so much! That said it all; "....and you shall know them by their fruits".

I saw multiple generations sitting down together peacefully, in some kind of quiet accord. Young people EVERYWHERE, from many nations - Muslim clerics, kings and queens and disagreeing people sitting - at least for awhile - calmly together. Really, when was the last time you saw about 1.5 million people just hanging out?

What other evidence is there or would anyone need to see that this Pope's presence was mostly good? I think what got to me about Kazarah's viewpoint is that it made me so tired........ tired of having to defend good behavior, calm thinking, positive actions. It is so depressing to think that if you try with all your might to bring some light into this dark world, people still don't think you measure up.... that they see only what they want to see.

I know some people get very tied into their point of view about this thing or that - certainely Roman Catholicism has had its share of bad behavior, bad advice and bad press. Some things we just have to let go of - some things we will never understand in this life. Example: why the hell did Terry Sciavo, her husband and her family have to suffer so? What was the ultimate point? We won't know until we know on the other side.

For me, when I look at was had transpired this week in Rome, I see light and fruit. Isn't that a funny combination?

Let's just be good to each other in the world. How about that Kazarah?

How bout we let God judge the fruits of someone like John Paul? Would that make you happy, or will you still need to defend your right to be right?

I say these things to you because you must be so hurting with frustration that you feel the need to defend some 'viewpoint'. You must feel the world is very, very wicked. I hope God invades your heart with great love and freedom! Truly......

OK - I'm done GSK8. No more debates from me, I promise. After all, this is a Figure Skating Board so let's bring on the OLYS! Tenorguy

I got back from Rome on Sunday (before the onslaught of pilgrims to the city), and in my tour book there is a list of the silliest questions tour guides at the Vatican hear. The number one question is "Is the Pope Catholic". When I saw the title of this thread, I thought it would be a thread along those lines. Too bad I was wrong.

Lucy25 said:

I got back from Rome on Sunday (before the onslaught of pilgrims to the city), and in my tour book there is a list of the silliest questions tour guides at the Vatican hear. The number one question is "Is the Pope Catholic". When I saw the title of this thread, I thought it would be a thread along those lines. Too bad I was wrong.

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Lucy, I was thinking along those same lines as well when I first saw the title of this thread. I was disappointed to find out otherwise. I am a Catholic, and I was certainly never taught to say "Good Riddance" upon the death of anybody.

For anybody who is wondering, I was unable to find out anything about Patrick John Pollock. However, this missive of his is featured on several Traditional Catholic websites, most notably the site of a sect in Montana that elected a "pope" via a telephone vote in 1998.

Whether JPII * ( * as noted by the Roman Catholic Church) was or was not a Catholic; and, whether he is a legitimate Pope or a heretical pretender, a great truth was spoken at the funeral of this man...."you shall be judged as you have judged" Whether you view this as Karma, Retribution, Judgdement, or Basic Spiritual Truth, it really does ring a bell.

My feelings about John Paul II is that I disagreed with much of what he said and preached. Still, much of what he said and preach I could agree with. While I could not conider him someone I would look to for guidance in my own spiritual life, I can see the greatness of how he discharged the duties of his office and acted from his own intrinsic belief system...in real terms, I do believe that he was sincere in his beliefs, right or wrong. That's a whole lot more than I can say about many "spiritual leaders" who promise falling Acuras from above or those who "just need 5 more dollars, won't you please help us" guys.

Pope John Paul probably will come down on my list of "great " people who had their own hiderances, whether of genration and time, or adhearance to unbending beleif systems. Take for instance, Thomas Jefferson. Great Statesman, progressive president, towering intellect, inventor, founding architech of what has become one of the most noble experiments of humankind.
ALSO, slave owner, coward over inclusiveness directly over the issues of race and gender, slave bedder, father of illegitimate children whose decendants had to sue for their rightful inhearitance. Insolant, haughty, some thought conniving.

Yet I thank Mr. Jefferson for starting something good. Great men often have great foiables. I also thank John Paul II. It was an amazing thought when I realalized that over the past 20 odd years, this leader of over a billion managed to face and have a dialouge asking for forgiveness for barbaric behavior that had been considered "acceptable doctorine" for nearly 2000 years. So, he doesn't like Gays, Woman, and Right Wing Death Sentence Defenders. Doesn't mean he didn't leave something behind worth value. He was bound to be the most exposed Pope in the world. He was elected at the beginning of the electronic age when cable, satellite, 24 hour news, computers and eventually the world wide web expanded his exposure to countless billions. It didn't hurt that he was also well enough to travel. Nothing like a little face time to inspire the masses. However managed the images, though, I am still moved by the images of Pope at the mosques and temples and other houses of worship that he has acknowledged as "godly places". That may be a great photo-op but the courage to say "We have been horribly wrong and we are deeply and truely sorry" is something that just can't be scripted.

Who knows if he was a great pope...I do believe history will view him to be a great man...flaws and all.

Who knows if he was a great pope...I do believe history will view him to be a great man...flaws and all.

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I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but as usual sk8m8, your assessment was well said. High profile people are scrutinized quite literally until they die. I feel in this case, the good that he did outweighed the mistakes he may have made in the name of not only the church, but humanity as well.....42

Well, strictly speaking, Kzarah is correct.

This is a difficult subject to approach objectively, given the nature of overlapping beliefs, varied interpretations, historical perspectives, cultural perspectives. My own opinions and beliefs are irrelevant in terms of factual matters, but I have seen John Paul II as an extremely important, influencial religious leader and quite the good diplomat and politician. He was important in this past two generations of 25 years. In the bottom line, he did promote discussion and relations between men, women and the nations, and he did encourage the mending of emotional wounds between people of different religious beliefs.

I have read views of the history of the Roman Catholic Church and was raised and schooled within to a certain age, and my parents and relatives were also, my father being Jesuit raised, which is a very traditional, strictly interpretive sect. The history of the church is vague for about 1000 years after 0 A.D., and then the history is more clearly documented. The RC church is a very powerful political entity, and it set itself up to compete with other organized religions for believers and control of the masses through strict doctrines. The Jewish faith has the concept of the selected people, as do other faiths, and so it comes to pass that the RC church also has doctrines that exclude, strictly exclude, any different interpretations/beliefs of others. Any differing view is defined as herecy.

Therefore, any behaviors, words, speaches or blessings outside of the strictly, concretely interpreted doctrines in order to change with the cultural and societal times could be considered as heretic. Heretics should be excommunicated, and in the past, were burned at the stake.

The concept of herecy is antiquated. I believe that people do not recognize herecy any more, or even care if they do recognize it. It was herecy to change the fasting rules, or head covering rules, or allowing women to give communion, or even to use guitars and singing at Mass. Who cares? I didn't. Should Pope John VI have been excommunicated for instituting change in the Vatican II? C'mon, give me a break.

Kzarah, you are correct that in the strictest sense, when interpreted through medieval viewpoints, he is a heretic. Centuries ago, they would burn him, now many love and are lead by him.

You are correct about his being a heretic. My point is....who cares if he didn't lead the RC church according to medieval standards? Most Catholics do not care, but applaud him for it. No one said you had to be perfect to be Pope, just ask Pope Alexander XXIII's decendents!

Everyone should give Zharah a break and give thanks for the wake up call to keep everything in perspective. The near bashing, etc. only clouds the interesting topics underneath.

So, thanks, Kzarah.

All religions revere tradition and resist change. The reason is obvious.

The Catholic Church is against contraception because God is against contraception.

The Church is against women priests because God is against women priests.

Can the Pope suddenly wake up one morning and say, God came to me in a dream and said He changed his mind?

Actually, yes, sometimes religious leaders can. Up until 1978 black people could not be full members of the Mormon church (Latter Day Saints). The reason for this is that when Cain killed Abel, God placed a curse on Cain's descendants (the Negro races), "marked" them with dark skin, and decreed that they would forever be the despised servants of the children of Abel (white people).

In the 1970s there was a series of lawsuits and injunctions against the U and I (Utah and Idaho) Sugar Company, and other financial holdings of the president of the Mormon church, on the basis of violation of federal antidiscrimination laws. The Church elders met and, lo! the spirit of the Lord revealed that on that very day the time that He had set aside for the curse of Cain had expired, and it was now OK to welcome blacks into the church and its hierarchy.

Mathman

When I lived in Utah I constantly marvelled at the "convenient" revelations of their Chief Revelator, Prophet and Seer......churches weary me in general.

kzarah said:

As a good Catholic I am defending my faith and heritage.

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Do you think being "a good catholic" inludes denigrating the memory of a man beloved by many? because that's really far from the truth. So you don't like him, fine, but please do not suffer for the millions that did get the message of love he gave through out his entire life. No one is forcing you to belive anything, and nobody is forcing the rest of catholics to believe anything either.

JMHO...The Truth of Divine and Catholic Faith sounds like the rantings from an old World insistent on holding onto control of its followers. The 'my way is the only way' attitude usually leads to an extremism that can lead to violence. The current 'Holy War' is being pushed by people who believe they are doing God's Will although what they are doing go against the basic tenants of their teachings.

Most religions are based upon respect for others and kindess. Most came from a single source that divurged at some point in history. Jesus Christ was a Jew - he did not consider himself to be Catholic.

JPII and all the other Popes quoted on the link are human beings - they are not God and they are not perfect. They can only frame their beliefs within the reference of their life experiences, knowledge, beliefs and interests. Not all of the Popes were 'good' people.

IMO, the great leaders are the ones who can reach out to others with at least respect and a level of acceptance, instead of disdain and contempt.

I am a good Catholic too, but I wasn't raised in the faith. It wasn't until last year that I completed my instruction in the faith and was confirmed.

I can honestly say that what I learned in RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults) was closer to those of you who look to the good in the church and the need to accept other religions and ways of thinking of things. I would assume that the original poster would think that most of what I was taught was blasphemy - we were taught that the Catholic religion is not the be all and end all of the religious world; that there is a heirarchy of sins, and it is up to the individual to decide if, for example, using birth control is a "sin" that they are willing to incur (there are sins that are not up for negotiation, such as murder and adultry); that the rules of the church are made by humans, and not necessarily God, and therefore are fallible.

I'm not saying that I learned that Catholicism is a free for all of flouting rules - however, the church that I was initiated into was, well, kinder and gentler church (to borrow a phrase from Bush Sr) than that which is described in the original post. We got that from the Second Vatican Council, and further from John Paul II. I think we still have a ways to go in a lot of areas, especially married relations, but we are on the right track and we will, hopefully, get there. The Catholic Church is a huge organization, covering millions of people with differeing cultures and viewpoints, so it will take a long time.

I do think, though, that Pope John Paul II has definitely earned the acclimation of "Great" and will someday be a saint. God bless you, John Paul, and God bless those who seek to bring all of the world's religions together in understanding, which can only help lead the world to peace and make everyone's lives better.

Sk8er1964 - as an ever-seeking non-denomination Christian (finally baptised on March 6) I am curious as to reference for the "hierachy of sins" comment. I was of the opinion that a sin is a sin and that there are no levels, murder is equal to lying etc, and all can and will be forgiven if you repent and ask the Lord for forgiveness.

As for whether the Pope was a Catholic - my personal opinion is yes. But our opinions don't matter, there is only one Judge. Just like I can't tell anyone they are going to heaven or to hell, or tell someone that they aren't a "real Christian". I think the Pope's efforts in bringing religions together were amazing, he had a gift.