Why do young stars fall by the wayside?

icy fresh · Apr 26, 2005

Sorry all, I couldn't think of a good topic name. Anyway, basically, I have just a question that could lead to discussion. Why do some many skaters who get a lot of success as youngster rarely make it big? I was looking through my mom's US Figure Skating directory and they had the list of the juvenile and intermediate champions (I mainly looked at the singles category) for the US Junior Championships and none that have won have really gone on to compete at the Olympics or even medal at Senior Nationals. So why is this ?

soogar · Apr 26, 2005

Probably because the qualities that made the kid successful in juniors disappeared after puberty. Sydne Vogel was a World Junior Champion and she was never able to have a top notch senior career. I think a lot of that had to do with her height (I think she's 5'7), injuries and inability to manage the extra weight after puberty.

I also think that money and training have a lot to do with the fallout as well, and perhaps some politics as well. The money requirements increase exponentially when the junior makes the jump to seniors (this is with all the levels) and the time commitment increases as well. A lot of kids don't want to devote so much time to a sport when there are other things going on with their lives such as school and romance etc. I also think that it's imperative that the kid has the right coach as well. A lot of coaches can't handle guiding a student through the senior ranks successfully. They can get them to the junior level but the coach lacks the ability (or experience) dealing with the demands of the senior level.

Then there's a big fish in a small pond theory. Like Mao is dominating juniors but I think that when she gets to seniors, she won't be as dominant b/c there are more talented skaters competing in senior level (with more experience) than in juniors.

brad640 · Apr 26, 2005

Does anyone remember a televised pro competition soon after 94 Olys where a female skater who was around 8 years old skated an exhibition to Mary Poppins? I don't know why she was there. She began with an umbrella and carpet bag and she wore a hat with a flower in it. Scott Hamilton and Verne Lundquist were commentating and they were saying what a great future this skater had because she could interpret the music at a very young age. I don't remember her name, but I thought it was strange that they were touting her to go on to greatness when so much can happen at each progression in a skating career. Did anyone else see this?

soogar · Apr 26, 2005

I remember this but I totally forgot the skater!

I think that there are characteristics that set exceptionally gifted children apart from the rest. However skating (in the US at least) is not a sport that has a wide talent pool to start with. Most of the kids do it b/c they're from decent families who think of taking them to the rink in the first place. That excludes a whole bunch of potential talent. So amongst these well off klutzes, if there is one kid who can pick up the skills fairly well, this kid already has a lot of potential compared to the talent pool (even if the kid is not the most talented athlete overall).

gkelly · Apr 27, 2005

icy_fresh said:
Why do some many skaters who get a lot of success as youngster rarely make it big? I was looking through my mom's US Figure Skating directory and they had the list of the juvenile and intermediate champions (I mainly looked at the singles category) for the US Junior Championships and none that have won have really gone on to compete at the Olympics or even medal at Senior Nationals. So why is this ?

One reason is numbers. In the past 10 years, for example, there have been 10 juvenile ladies champions, 10 intermediate ladies champions (with at least one repeat that I know of offhand), 10 novice champions, etc., and the same for other disciplines.

Once you get to seniors, often the same skaters keep winning medals year after year, so there's less opportunity for the new skaters moving up to get onto the podium, or even get to Nationals at all in many cases. Making an Olympic team is even less likely because there are only 2-9 spots TOTAL for any discipline over that 10-year period, and again there are often repeat Olympians.

Ladskater · Apr 28, 2005

It's like everything; to make it big in figure skating it takes determination and money. Some of these talented youngsters may decide to take a different path by the time they graduate from high school or they just may not be able to afford to keep competing. It takes years of dedication. Some want to move on to other pursuits or maybe turn to coaching. Not all are budding medalists. It's almost a rare breed when one thinks about it. Good question.

Maybe your topic could be "One Hit Wonders."

attyfan · Apr 28, 2005

Didn't Sarah Hughes win the Junior National Championships? I also think that gifted American skaters (Kwan, Liang) might skip Junior Nationals without medaling because they can compete in Sr. Nats at 12, even after the ISU raised the age limit for Senior international events.

Linny · Apr 28, 2005

Luck

In addition to the important items others have mentioned:

Takes a lot of good luck. Some people have it, others don't.

Linny

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 28, 2005

Some kids who take up artistic endeavours (think piano, etc.) eventually get bored with it. I'm speaking from experience. :eek:

hwell:

Joe

Sylvia · Apr 28, 2005

attyfan said:
Didn't Sarah Hughes win the Junior National Championships? I also think that gifted American skaters (Kwan, Liang) might skip Junior Nationals without medaling because they can compete in Sr. Nats at 12, even after the ISU raised the age limit for Senior international events.

Yes, Sarah Hughes was the 1998 Junior champ at the age of 12. Both Kwan and Liang competed at Nationals in Junior but did not medal. Both were 11 years old at the time -- Liang placed 6th (2000) and Kwan 9th (1992) -- and both placed 6th in their senior debut at Nationals the following year.

Some of the singles skaters that win national titles at the Juvenile, Intermediate, Novice and Junior levels simply may have peaked at that level and/or don't make it to seniors/have staying power for many of the reasons already mentioned in this thread.

Yebin Mok, who won consecutive Juvenile and Intermediate national titles, has competed in 5 senior nationals with 6th place in 2003 being her best finish to date. Obviously, her career has been slowed by injuries, but I think she is a good example of a skater who has had a successful competitive career when you realize just how many female singles skaters in the U.S. dream about qualifying for Nationals just once in their lifetime.

NorthernLite · Apr 28, 2005

brad640 said:
Does anyone remember a televised pro competition soon after 94 Olys where a female skater who was around 8 years old skated an exhibition to Mary Poppins? I don't know why she was there. ... I don't remember her name, but I thought it was strange that they were touting her to go on to greatness when so much can happen at each progression in a skating career. Did anyone else see this?

Commentators who should know better do that all the time. Or perhaps the problem is that Scott, Peggy and the like are out of touch with the younger divisions, and have forgotten just how often a promising kid doesn't make it to the top. Or how often someone who didn't get as much attention at a younger age blooms in seniors.
Gad, look at the way Dick and Peggy hyped Sasha to death ca. 2000-02, even while some skating fas were discussing her flaws - lack of edging, etc. Then, even as she was doing better the past few years - winning GPs, finishing on the Worlds podium - they seemed to turn on her a bit because she hadn't lived up to their impossible perfect ideal. *eyes*
(Which is why some of us will be somewhat amused if Peggy's new girlcrush Kimmie is surpassed by one of the "underdogs.")
As for the kid you referred to - I can't recall her name at the moment either, but I think she is, or was until recently, still competing. I think she has an Irish name and was from Mass.? (Perhaps this'll jog Sylvia's memory.)

Bubbles · Apr 28, 2005

The "Mary Poppins" skater being discussed might be Kelly O'Grady. I don't remember the Mary Poppins number, but I do remember a lot of talk about O'Grady who first showed up as a tiny sweeper at a competition.

brad640 · Apr 28, 2005

Bubbles said:
The "Mary Poppins" skater being discussed might be Kelly O'Grady. I don't remember the Mary Poppins number, but I do remember a lot of talk about O'Grady who first showed up as a tiny sweeper at a competition.

You're right! I found a review of a 99 show where she did the same number. It didn't sound like she was performing very well at that time. I also found the program from the show where I remembered seeing her. Apparently she was only 4 or 5 at the time. Thanks Bubbles, NorthernLite, soogar, and Sylvia for solving this mystery! :clap:

Best of luck to Kelly O'Grady for whatever she is doing now.

backspin · Apr 28, 2005

In addition to the other things mentioned here, I think most skaters, even those successful ones at the lower levels, hit the wall when it comes time to do the triples. A fast-rising star may be stopped dead in their tracks when they move up to novice & it's a whole new ball game where consistent triples in competition is the name of the game.

Almost any reasonably talented skater can do doubles--triples are a whole 'nuther story, & the field gets significantly narrowed as they start dropping like flies. For every 100 girls in this country who's got all her doubles, there's maybe 10 or 20 that can get a triple or two. And to get ALL your triples? Maybe 1 out of 500--maybe less.

Mathman · Apr 28, 2005

Kelly O'Grady in 1998:

http://www-tech.mit.edu/V118/N11/sailor1.11.gif

lavender · Apr 29, 2005

Puberty is not kind to women. I know the women drop like flies but do the men have a better fate. Who's the guy that always beat Evan in juniors (Worlds) and now he's not doing as well at even Evan. He's coached under TT and Alexei. It's almost like Sasha and Jenny. Jenny did better in juniors and now even a clean program can't beat a flawed Sasha.

chuckm · Apr 29, 2005

Overall, Junior Worlds champion men have fared much better long-term than the Junior World champion ladies. The names in bold won senior World or Olympic medals.

1994 Michelle Kwan, Michael Weiss
1995 Irina Slutskaya, Ilya Kulik [note: Tara Lipinski was 4th]
1996 Yelena Ivanova, Alexei Yagudin
1997 Sydne Vogel, Evgeny Plushenko
1998 Julia Soldatova, Derrick Delmore
1999 Daria Timoshenko, Ilya Klimkin [note: Sarah Hughes was 2nd]
2000 Jennifer Kirk, Stefan Lindemann
2001 Kristina Oblasova, Johnny Weir [note: Evan Lysacek was 2nd]
2002 AP McDonough, Daisuke Takahashi
2003 Yukina Ota, Alexander Shubin [note: Evan Lysacek was 2nd]
2004 Miki Ando, Andrei Griazev [note: Evan Lysacek was 2nd]
2005 Mao Asada, Nobunari Oda

Linny · Apr 29, 2005

Just like 'em

I just like watching the younger skaters. If the commentators want to hype them as the next big thing, fine, but I'll enjoy them for what they have now. Tiffany Steigler may not be on everyone's thumbs up list now because of her fast rise to the top of the USA dance field, but you've gotta admit: as a youngster, she was magical and entertaining, skating pairs with her brother.
Linny

thisthingcalledlove · Apr 29, 2005

chuckm said:
Overall, Junior Worlds champion men have fared much better long-term than the Junior World champion ladies. The names in bold won senior World or Olympic medals.

1994 Michelle Kwan, Michael Weiss
1995 Irina Slutskaya, Ilya Kulik [note: Tara Lipinski was 4th]
1996 Yelena Ivanova, Alexei Yagudin
1997 Sydne Vogel, Evgeny Plushenko
1998 Julia Soldatova, Derrick Delmore
1999 Daria Timoshenko, Ilya Klimkin [note: Sarah Hughes was 2nd]
2000 Jennifer Kirk, Stefan Lindemann
2001 Kristina Oblasova, Johnny Weir [note: Evan Lysacek was 2nd]
2002 AP McDonough, Daisuke Takahashi
2003 Yukina Ota, Alexander Shubin [note: Evan Lysacek was 2nd]
2004 Miki Ando, Andrei Griazev [note: Evan Lysacek was 2nd]
2005 Mao Asada, Nobunari Oda

It's interesting to note, also, that in 1995, the ladies field for Jr worlds included future medalists in the pairs division who finished outside the top 10...

Jamie Sale finished 12th, and Sarah Abitbol did not qualify. Arakawa was there, and finished 8th

heyang · May 1, 2005

There have been many skaters annointed as ones to watch. I remember when Surya Bonaly amazed with her jumping. The network showed her as a knobby kneed youngster, even though she wasn't anywhere near the top at the time. I think a that was a year or two before she made it into the final 6.

It's more common at the National level - especially in an Olympic year. Everyone wants to know who might be the future. Sometimes they get it right and sometimes they don't.

Why do young stars fall by the wayside?

icy fresh

soogar

brad640

soogar

gkelly

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

attyfan

Custom Title

Linny

Joesitz (RIP)

Sylvia

NorthernLite

Bubbles

brad640

backspin

Mathman

lavender

chuckm

Linny

thisthingcalledlove

heyang

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