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Thread: Kwan at the Crossroads and Choices

  1. #31
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    Michelle can handle pressure a lot better than Sasha, who doesn't handle it well at all. Sasha skated as well as she did at Worlds this year because she was totally overshadowed by Irina and knew she had no chance to win. But Torino is another thing entirely. Sasha wants to win very, very badly because then she can retire to a lucrative pro career.

    I think Irina has the best chance of winning the OGM because she is the reigning World Champion, and if she can duplicate her Worlds performances she is in like Flynn. But that is a big if. She will be skating in Torino, not at home, and it was in Torino that she had her disastrous FS at Euros this year. I suspect the altitude at Torino may have been a problem for her, because her disease and the prednisone she takes to control it affect her lungs. Because of that, she really can't prepare ahead of time at altitude to acclimate herself without risking a worsening of her health.

    About Kostner: yes, Kwan barely beat her in the SP and FS, but Kwan's jump content didn't compare to Kostner's and Kwan's programs were not CoP friendly, as Kostner's were. Kwan won on PCS, and because she didn't have good CoP programs, her PCS marks weren't anywhere as high as they would be with better choreography and transitions. Kostner still looks a tad gawky and her moves are rough and unfinished. Once Kwan adds more jump content, even slightly better spins, and better choreography, and she will be way ahead of Kostner no matter how many 3/3s Kostner throws in.

  2. #32
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    [QUOTE=euterpe]Seems to me it is IRINA's coaches who tell her she should have won every competition she lost. That's why Irina is still grumbling about not having won Worlds 2001 (which she lost on a 7/2 split---not even close) and still claims she was "robbed" of 'her' gold medal in 2002 even though her FS was slow, flawed, and far from brilliant.


    To say the least re SLC '02! Her FS at the Olympics was awful! And the attempts to make up for the weaknesses of her skating by the dramatic gestures was almost laughable. I think it's a very close call whether Kwan's flawed free skate should have beaten Irina's at SLC.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21
    Interesting comments given that Slutskaya and Cohen greatly outscored her in several areas that had nothing to do with jump content.
    Those "several areas" wouldn't include, by any chance, 9562 ways to include the Bielmann in your program now would they?

    I think Kwan has just as much of a chance of winning gold in Italy as Irina, Cohen, Kostner and anyone else you throw in there. IF she decides she wants to compete, I think she knows what she has to do. And we have to remember that she didn't finish that far off the podium at Worlds. And yeah, so Cohen and Irina outscored her in other areas. Maybe if Kwan had fallen on her jumps instead of doubling them, had a whale of a better QR, you might have seen different results. Who knows? But I hope something is done about the repetitive moves to score points, otherwise every program you see from someone with a flexible back will include Bielmannitis.

  4. #34
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    Agreed! At Worlds 2005, everyone who could grab a was leg doing Biellmanns and traveling all over the ice on their spins. It must have been very monotonous for the judges. And no one can do a Biellmann anywhere near as good as the original. Denise Biellmann grabbed the blade with both hands, not cheating by grabbing with one hand and holding the wrist with the other, such as Irina's ersatz Biellmann.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe
    Agreed! At Worlds 2005, everyone who could grab a was leg doing Biellmanns and traveling all over the ice on their spins. It must have been very monotonous for the judges. And no one can do a Biellmann anywhere near as good as the original. Denise Biellmann grabbed the blade with both hands, not cheating by grabbing with one hand and holding the wrist with the other, such as Irina's ersatz Biellmann.
    Unfortunately, the judges just ate those travelling Bielmans up. I think Sasha would have won that night because they also dig her wow spirals.

    I can hear Ethel Merman singing "There's no Bielman's like Denise Bielman like no Bielman I know."

    Joe

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Unfortunately, the judges just ate those travelling Bielmans up. I think Sasha would have won that night because they also dig her wow spirals.

    I can hear Ethel Merman singing "There's no Bielman's like Denise Bielman like no Bielman I know."

    Joe
    LOL

    I've also never realized that the handhold was different, Denise's really is harder. I'll appreciate it even more now.
    Last edited by BridgetJ; 05-02-2005 at 06:47 PM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by realistic51
    Those "several areas" wouldn't include, by any chance, 9562 ways to include the Bielmann in your program now would they?
    Yes they would. Even as an Irina fan I agree skaters should not be rewarded for doing a repetive move, but those are the rules, and they are not going to greatly change before an Olympics in an Olympic cycle.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    It is interesting to look at the numbers. In total jumps, the scores in the LP (counting GOE) were

    Irina 42.82

    Sasha 41.15

    Michelle 38.65

    Michelle lost 5.71 points on her two flubbed jumps (the fall on the Salchow and the problems on the second Lutz). If she had landed those jumps cleanly, everything else being equal, Michelle would have won the jumping part of the contest, with 44.36

    Mathman
    You are forgetting Irina lost points by doing a third triple loop which she got no credit for, for her remaining jump window. Had she done another triple toe with the double loop for example, instead of the triple loop/double loop she would have received an additional 4+ points. Had she done a second triple lutz instead she would have received an additional 6+ points. She choice to do a jump for the 3rd time she received no credit for.
    Last edited by slutskayafan21; 05-05-2005 at 11:57 AM.

  9. #39
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    A little bit OT for this Michelle thread, but that was so cool when Irina threw in that triple loop instead of the planned double at the end of her first combination. It was like she wanted to stop after two, but she was so sky high she just kept on twirling!

    Yes, it cost her some points, but she got it back on the PCS for sheer exuberance.

    Mathman

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    A little bit OT for this Michelle thread, but that was so cool when Irina threw in that triple loop instead of the planned double at the end of her first combination. It was like she wanted to stop after two, but she was so sky high she just kept on twirling!

    Yes, it cost her some points, but she got it back on the PCS for sheer exuberance.

    Mathman
    I agree, she was just so excited in the last 2 minutes of the program, it was like she was riding a wave on the ocean. She just wanted to keep doing more and more, and keep flying. It was like Michelle at the end of her long program at the 2000 Worlds, do you remember how fast she went around that last corner.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafan21
    ...do you remember how fast she went around that last corner.
    Like she was rounding third and digging for the plate, scoring from first base on a liner to right!

    Your post inspired me to look for the famous picure of that moment. I didn't find it, but I did come across this pair from the 1998 World championships. Together, they are pretty wonderful.

    Pretty

    Wonderful

    Mathman

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by BridgetJ
    LOL

    I've also never realized that the handhold was different, Denise's really is harder. I'll appreciate it even more now.
    I had noticed the different hand hold and Denise's was clearly harder (grabbing the BLADE with both hands). I cannot call Irina's Biellman a true Biellman for that reason. I think Naomi Nari Nam also had a beautiful Biellman spin. Where Irina sets herself apart is - 1)doing it on both sides (nobody does a back Biellman AFAIK), and 2)changing positions during the spin.

    Vash
    Last edited by Vash01; 05-07-2005 at 02:18 AM.

  13. #43
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    totally off topic

    but since we're comparing biellmann's...

    Irina's

    Denise's

    Lucinda's

    Naomi's

    Plushenko's

  14. #44
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    No one does the Beillmann better than Denise, with Lucinda a very close second.........42

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by show 42
    No one does the Beillmann better than Denise, with Lucinda a very close second.........42

    Yeah but Plush has the proper HANDHOLD!!!!

    Lucinda's is the best Biellman... that girl could spin and spin and stay centered and do it fast. No one was a better spinner than Lucinda.

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