Kwan at the Crossroads and Choices

tripleflutz · May 21, 2005

Irina deserved high marks!

Irina deserved the high marks she got for the biellman spiral. And I don't think any rules should be changed to prevent her from doing it. The biellman is difficult and should be marked high. I can't help thinking that those asking for a rules change are just trying to penalize Irina and help their own favorite at the Olympics. If the ISU does anything like that many will call it an attempt at an illegal fix, and it will cause another controversy. Leave well enough alone.

tripleflutz

attyfan · May 21, 2005

tripleflutz said:
Irina deserved the high marks she got for the biellman spiral. And I don't think any rules should be changed to prevent her from doing it. The biellman is difficult and should be marked high. I can't help thinking that those asking for a rules change are just trying to penalize Irina and help their own favorite at the Olympics. If the ISU does anything like that many will call it an attempt at an illegal fix, and it will cause another controversy. Leave well enough alone. tripleflutz

Just out of curiosity, when the ISU instituted the "Zayak rule", did any one call it an attempt at an illegal fix, or an attempt to help another skater do better at Olys? Or were they able to sell it as an attempt to get skaters to use different jumps, instead of repeating the triple toe and the triple salcow? I agree that Irina deserved high marks under existing rules, but I don't see why spins and spirals should be treated differently than jumps -- if the ISU is ready to forbid too much repeition of the same jump, then it should also forbid too much repetition of the same spin/spiral position.

Joesitz (RIP) · May 21, 2005

attyfan said:
I agree that Irina deserved high marks under existing rules, but I don't see why spins and spirals should be treated differently than jumps -- if the ISU is ready to forbid too much repeition of the same jump, then it should also forbid too much repetition of the same spin/spiral position.

ITA. Irina is a top notch competitor. She has tricks galore and her scores show that although some of GOEs are bit much when she travels so much on spins and has no class whatsover, imo, when just flowing over the ice. However, her jumps are super and with good height in the air.

I would just like to see her do a straight leg spiral. From past competitions, as I recall, it was like bent knee and club foot. Both faults could have been corrected.

I just can't imagine her beating out Sasha and Michelle in straight leg spirals. If they are so easy, why doesn't she just throw one in?

Joe

MidnightNess · May 21, 2005

Irina deserved the high marks she got for the biellman spiral. And I don't think any rules should be changed to prevent her from doing it. The biellman is difficult and should be marked high. I can't help thinking that those asking for a rules change are just trying to penalize Irina and help their own favorite at the Olympics. If the ISU does anything like that many will call it an attempt at an illegal fix, and it will cause another controversy. Leave well enough alone

It's not just Irina that people are concerned about although she has started the trend of adding multiple beilmann positions to her program. Think about it--other skaters are probably looking at her program right now during the summer and figured out that adding a beilmann to pretty much all her spins is what got her the level 3s and they will begin copying her. She of course had changes of edges and different arm variations as well but so have other skaters and they didn't get a level 3, hence the assumption that the beilmann is the way to go.

Another issue at hand is whether or not those skaters who achieve level 3 spins will continue to attempt different types of laybacks/flying spins/combos to get a level 3 or will they keep the original spins knowing already that they will be judged a level 3. I'm not saying Irina will do that necessarily but I won't be surprised if we started seeing skaters copy/paste spins/spirals from their previous programs knowing they can get the same level as before---unless of course the rules regarding levels are changed to allow more variety. Adding a rule restricting the number of times you can incorporate a move/position into your program will help. We'll see skaters being forced to try new moves each season which of course will help figure skating from becoming too homogenous in terms of the elements in their programs that the audience and the judges see.

mzheng · May 21, 2005

In contract my thought is "the illegal fix" already done in CoP system after it first came to the scene.

IIRC, the first release of CoP did not explicitly include Bielmann position as an optional leg position as one of the requirement as level 3. The potential level 3 spiral at the top lady would be Sasha and Michelle. Late it explicitly included Bielmann as a variation of free leg position....With so many pre Rusian skaters hired as the ISU specialists and Piseeve's strong opinion against the CoP at Mosco....I was fully understand this type of change.

I said before and say it again. If rule says Beilmmann is a level 3 earn a higher points, then so be it. IS earn points on TCS rightly. But if you stick it every where in your programs, in SP, LP, no matter is choreograph call it or not. Any one see her do an Inabow, split jump, charlot, etc.? There is something called variaty, for the skaters lack of variaty they should get punished in PCS scores. I don't see it happens when it cames to IS.

Kathy · May 21, 2005

Mzheng
There are rumors popping up that Michelle may work with Tatiana Tarosova next season - either for the summer just to have programs choreographed by her or maybe a coach change. I'd be surprised if she left RA, they seem to have such a good coaching relationship and she said that RA was going to coach at East-West Palace after the summer and that she'd be training there. Do you - or anyone else - have any insight?

OwenEvans · May 22, 2005

"...as the GOAT"....

This is a really unfortunate acronym.....can't MK be referred to as the "best", instead of the "greatest"?....I mean, I would prefer to think of her even as a BOAT rather than a GOAT when it comes down to it....

Joesitz (RIP) · May 22, 2005

MidnightNess said:
She of course had changes of edges and different arm variations as well but so have other skaters and they didn't get a level 3, hence the assumption that the beilmann is the way to go.

I'm not disagreeing with your post but I am curious as to how one can execute a Bielman position with different arm variations? I believe by definition both hands must be holding a free leg above the head of the skater. The arms, to me, would be just as stationary except naturally when one does changes of edges but certainly they do not add to the difficulty. It's a reaction of the body with change of edge.

Joe

Joesitz (RIP) · May 22, 2005

Kathy said:
Mzheng
There are rumors popping up that Michelle may work with Tatiana Tarosova next season - either for the summer just to have programs choreographed by her or maybe a coach change. I'd be surprised if she left RA, they seem to have such a good coaching relationship and she said that RA was going to coach at East-West Palace after the summer and that she'd be training there. Do you - or anyone else - have any insight?

Not good news! TT is no expert on jumping. She does excellent choreography. If MK goes for a program. OK, but not as a coach. Will TT do this while coaching Shizuka? and since jumps are not exactly Sasha's forte, she will grab RA for a 6 week intensive course in jumping.

Oh, the dreaded Olympics. It's a soap opera!

Joe

nymkfan51 · May 22, 2005

I believe it is totally a rumor, and no more than that. The person who posted it on another board was very suspect.
I would like MK to stay put in L.A. with Rafael. NO MORE coaching changes!!!

MidnightNess · May 22, 2005

I'm not disagreeing with your post but I am curious as to how one can execute a Bielman position with different arm variations?

Sorry! I should have been more clear. i mean just spins in general with different arm variations like the camel spin--not the beilmann

cianni · May 22, 2005

crossroads

I think the skaters should do what they do best to garner more points. Now lets set it up. Irina does the Bielman evey other move so her program will be crossover then a jump wave arms a Bielman 3 times and repeat crossover wave arms jump and 3 more Bielmans. Thats a winning program. Now Sasha she starts with a spin with variations of course crossovers and jump hand down or fall or wonky landing and onto 3 more spins onto the you know what in your face and 3 more spins. Thats a winning program. Now Michelle crossovers her Spiral all the way around the rink into a jump onto the Spiral again all the way around the rink of course with a jump and a spin tacked on. Now thats a winning program. We get the idea just repeat your Level 3 whatever and dont worry about the choro or a balanced program it really doesnt matter. I think thats what were in for with COP. My bet will be the fans who think doing a move over and over with no balance or choro will be the first to scream unfair if the other skaters adopt the same approach to their skating. I dont think any skater should be able to the same move over and over with no substance to the program. I take a fridge break when that type of program is being presented. Just my 2 cents .

Kathy · May 22, 2005

nymkfan51
There are lots of rumors flying about TT choreographing for MK - not just the one poster. Look at this:

http://forums.espn.go.com/espn/thread?forumID=771&threadID=1801924&lastPostID=10003652

flowjo35 · May 22, 2005

Kathy, thanks for posting this, I saw this at MKF.

If true it does not look like this is a coaching change but Michelle getting her program(s) done by TT. Michelle likes to train in LA and she and Rafael seem to have a good relationship. I hope this is true because TT knows how to get every last point out of a program if skated like she puts together. The link provided by Kathy states Michelle will be there for a month, not the hole summer so if this rumor is true, she can get her programs and work on them along with her jumps with Rafael. I guess will see if this is true.

attyfan · May 22, 2005

Does anyone know anything about the poster on the espn message board?

ladybug · May 23, 2005

According to the ESPN post, Tim is there with Carol Heiss. I find that hard to believe unless she is working with him on his jumps only.

I bet this is just someone bored with the off season. I doubt TT would coach or choro. for Michelle. I bet she is getting her short program from Nickoli (sp) if she is even there yet. She has been pretty busy with the new ice rink and I doubt she has had time for her r & r vacation.

Ladybug

hockeyfan228 · May 23, 2005

attyfan said:
Does anyone know anything about the poster on the espn message board?

She sometimes posts here, but I haven't seen one in a while. She's from CT, has connections there, and visits home on occasion. (All from public-facing posts.) She's never posted a report there without having a good source or having seen something in person.

Joesitz (RIP) · May 23, 2005

This news is a doozy, if it is true. TT was never one to speak about MK but she did in Moscow saying Michelle skated the best (nothing to do with tricks). This might be why MK approached her for a program.

If true, this is a promising sign that Michelle is dead serious about the Olys.

My feelings about Goebel is that he has been through much in the last couple of years and a return to his roots maybe just what he needs.

Joe

nymkfan51 · May 23, 2005

Joe, I didn't read anything about TT speaking of Michelle at Worlds. Where was this posted? How did I miss that!

Joesitz (RIP) · May 23, 2005

It was not written anywhere. I believe one of the commentators just mentioned it casually. It had nothing to do with the outcome of the competition.

Joe

Kwan at the Crossroads and Choices

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