I have been watching some of my recent video downloads of G&G in their competitive days in the late '80s and there is isn't a throw anything in any of the SPs. Was the throw jump not one of the requirements for the SP in the '80s? Could you choose not to do a throw jump in the SP? I'm curious to know this, b/c I didn't realise this (prolly b/c my video collection doesn't go too far back). Even their '88 Olympic SP doesn't have a throw jump (their '94 programmes did)
I can't remember the specific year, but they didn't become part of the SP until after the 97/98 season.
They became mandatory in the 1998-1999 season. In the 1998 Olympics the SP did not have a throw jump. In the 1998 grand prix competitions skaters were doing them.
Vash
Wow, I didn't realise it was that late, but I was looking at G&G's SP from the '94 Olys and sure enough: no throw jump. Any idea as to why they became mandatory? And how they went from throw 2axels to throw 3loops all of a sudden? I know by '92, the throw 3toe and 3sal were pretty common.Originally Posted by Vash01
I am not sure they went from throw 2A to 3R all of a sudden. Some pairs were doing the throw 3loop or throw triple toe (the other throw being throw triple salchow) quite early, e.g. V&V (1988th3t), M&D (89-94-th3t), B&Shl (96th3R),B&Sik (97th3R) and S&N (94th3t) , K&D (96-th3t), S&Z (97-th3R). Others were doing throw double axels (Meno & Sand and Woetzel-Steuyer) and still winning medals. However, it became clear that because of the higher difficulty of the th3R skaters had to upgrade their throw difficulty to be competitive. After 1998 you rarely saw a podium level pair do a throw double axel. All top pairs did throw 3sal and throw 3loop. Even Pet-Tik replaced their throw 3toe with throw 3loop after the 2002 Olys. Now some pairs are doing throw triple flip. I wonder if that will be the end of throw 3sal (unless they do throw 4sal)?
Vash
Interesting topic....
If I remeber correctly, the Soviet team (names???) who placed 2nd to Rodnina & Zaitsev @ 76O's did a throw 3R in their LP, which she landed (sorta) cleanly. Tai and Randy were competing a throw 2A at that stage and by the time of their WC in 79 were doing throw 2a and throw 3S in their LP. At the 80O's, the only team in the top 8 (I think) to not do at least 2 throw jumps in their respective LPs were the gold medallists, R&Z, who didn't do them ever AFAIR. C&S, the silver medallists, did 4(!!!!) throws in their LP, so there must have been a "Zayak-type" rule for number of throw jumps in LPs enforced soon after those O's as from 81 onwards, I can only remember 2 throws in LPs. Can anyone confirm details???
Also, does anyone know when the first throw double- and then triple-jumps were competed and by whom?
Last edited by OwenEvans; 05-12-2005 at 01:18 AM.
I remember, however, the daring throws that some pairs tried (not that any throw isn't daring...)Interesting topic....
If I remeber correctly, the Soviet team (names???) who placed 2nd to Rodnina & Zaitsev @ 76O's did a throw 3R in their LP, which she landed (sorta) cleanly. Tai and Randy were competing a throw 2A at that stage and by the time of their WC in 79 were doing throw 2a and throw 3S in their LP. At the 80O's, the only team in the top 8 (I think) to not do at least 2 throw jumps in their respective LPs were the gold medallists, R&Z, who didn't do them ever AFAIR. C&S, the silver medallists, did 4(!!!!) throws in their LP, so there must have been a "Zayak-type" rule for number of throw jumps in LPs enforced soon after those O's as from 81 onwards, I can only remember 2 throws in LPs. Can anyone confirm details???
Also, does anyone know when the first throw double- and then triple-jumps were competed and by whom?
Quad Sal throw- Carruthers
Triple axel throw- Abitbol/Bernadis (98 Olys)
Shen & Zhao tried a quad sal at Salt Lake, too. She had it for a couple of feet but slid off the edge. It was pretty impressive!
They should be mandatory, they are atleast one of the 3 most important elements in pairs skating, along with side by side jumps, and overhead lifts. Some would argue the twist as well. It is too significant not to be included in the short program. Also it gives the teams two risk elements, before there was only 1. Lets face it, a team missing a twist or lift, or a spin, or another element, is a very small percentage of the time.
Well, if they allowed the senior pairs to try triple twist in the short program instead of just double, you'd have another risk element right there and a lot more deductions, if not outright misses, on twists.
(And lucky for Elena Berezhnaya that change didn't come while she was competing, but it's bound to come one of these years.)
Absolutely I agree. The triple twist should be allowable, if not mandatory, in the pairs short program.
Two Russian pairs tried throw triple axel in the early 80's. IIRC the 1980 worlds (R&Z did not participate). They were Cherkeskaya-Shakarai (wrong on both spellings, I think) and Pestova-Leonov (he became G&G's coach later). Their 'throws' looked very strange though. They were so tiny that I had to watch the tape many times to convince myself it was not just a triple twist. Neither completed the throw 3A.
Vash
If it is allowed (although not mandatory), some pairs will do it for extra points and make the competition more exciting. However, this move is so diffcult that there may be negative GOE's for almost everyone, unless the judges are being lenient.
I also agree that the throw jump should be (and it is now!- what took them so long?) mandatory in the pairs SP. Quite often if a pair landed the sbs triples cleanly, they were home free, prior to the 1998-99 GP's.
Vash
I'm not sure. The triple is more difficult, granted, but I like that having a mandatory double in the short programme shows the difference in quality between the pairs - air time, delay, etc. When the Zhangs did their SP in 2003 Worlds, she didn't even pull in to rotate! That shows how much air time she had. And in SLC, Berezhnaya's twist in the SP had a beautiful delay to it that only S&Z came close to, iirc. If the triple was mandatory, doubles would become a thing of the past at the elite level, and with them the delay and hang time that the top skaters can perform.
I would like it if in pairs and singles, they would make all the skaters perform double (easier) elements like compulsories. That really is the only way you can tell the skaters with the great technique apart from the skaters with the so so technique. Mandate doubles and certain spins and let the skater vary the entrances to raise the difficulty of the element and show off sureness of execution. Right now you see a lot of poorly executed triple lutzes being placed above ladies with beautiful triple flips and I think that's wrong (this is the ladies event).
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