When did throw jumps become mandatory in the SP? | Golden Skate

When did throw jumps become mandatory in the SP?

Matt

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
I have been watching some of my recent video downloads of G&G in their competitive days in the late '80s and there is isn't a throw anything in any of the SPs. Was the throw jump not one of the requirements for the SP in the '80s? Could you choose not to do a throw jump in the SP? I'm curious to know this, b/c I didn't realise this (prolly b/c my video collection doesn't go too far back). Even their '88 Olympic SP doesn't have a throw jump (their '94 programmes did)
 

mpal2

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
I can't remember the specific year, but they didn't become part of the SP until after the 97/98 season.
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
They became mandatory in the 1998-1999 season. In the 1998 Olympics the SP did not have a throw jump. In the 1998 grand prix competitions skaters were doing them.

Vash
 

Matt

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Vash01 said:
They became mandatory in the 1998-1999 season. In the 1998 Olympics the SP did not have a throw jump. In the 1998 grand prix competitions skaters were doing them.

Vash

Wow, I didn't realise it was that late, but I was looking at G&G's SP from the '94 Olys and sure enough: no throw jump. Any idea as to why they became mandatory? And how they went from throw 2axels to throw 3loops all of a sudden? I know by '92, the throw 3toe and 3sal were pretty common.
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
I am not sure they went from throw 2A to 3R all of a sudden. Some pairs were doing the throw 3loop or throw triple toe (the other throw being throw triple salchow) quite early, e.g. V&V (1988th3t), M&D (89-94-th3t), B&Shl (96th3R),B&Sik (97th3R) and S&N (94th3t) , K&D (96-th3t), S&Z (97-th3R). Others were doing throw double axels (Meno & Sand and Woetzel-Steuyer) and still winning medals. However, it became clear that because of the higher difficulty of the th3R skaters had to upgrade their throw difficulty to be competitive. After 1998 you rarely saw a podium level pair do a throw double axel. All top pairs did throw 3sal and throw 3loop. Even Pet-Tik replaced their throw 3toe with throw 3loop after the 2002 Olys. Now some pairs are doing throw triple flip. I wonder if that will be the end of throw 3sal (unless they do throw 4sal)?

Vash
 

OwenEvans

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Interesting topic....

If I remeber correctly, the Soviet team (names???) who placed 2nd to Rodnina & Zaitsev @ 76O's did a throw 3R in their LP, which she landed (sorta) cleanly. Tai and Randy were competing a throw 2A at that stage and by the time of their WC in 79 were doing throw 2a and throw 3S in their LP. At the 80O's, the only team in the top 8 (I think) to not do at least 2 throw jumps in their respective LPs were the gold medallists, R&Z, who didn't do them ever AFAIR. C&S, the silver medallists, did 4(!!!!) throws in their LP, so there must have been a "Zayak-type" rule for number of throw jumps in LPs enforced soon after those O's as from 81 onwards, I can only remember 2 throws in LPs. Can anyone confirm details???

Also, does anyone know when the first throw double- and then triple-jumps were competed and by whom?

:)
 
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thisthingcalledlove

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 24, 2003
OwenEvans said:
Interesting topic....

If I remeber correctly, the Soviet team (names???) who placed 2nd to Rodnina & Zaitsev @ 76O's did a throw 3R in their LP, which she landed (sorta) cleanly. Tai and Randy were competing a throw 2A at that stage and by the time of their WC in 79 were doing throw 2a and throw 3S in their LP. At the 80O's, the only team in the top 8 (I think) to not do at least 2 throw jumps in their respective LPs were the gold medallists, R&Z, who didn't do them ever AFAIR. C&S, the silver medallists, did 4(!!!!) throws in their LP, so there must have been a "Zayak-type" rule for number of throw jumps in LPs enforced soon after those O's as from 81 onwards, I can only remember 2 throws in LPs. Can anyone confirm details???

Also, does anyone know when the first throw double- and then triple-jumps were competed and by whom?

:)

I remember, however, the daring throws that some pairs tried (not that any throw isn't daring...)

Quad Sal throw- Carruthers
Triple axel throw- Abitbol/Bernadis (98 Olys)
 

nicole_l

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
Shen & Zhao tried a quad sal at Salt Lake, too. She had it for a couple of feet but slid off the edge. It was pretty impressive!
 

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
They should be mandatory, they are atleast one of the 3 most important elements in pairs skating, along with side by side jumps, and overhead lifts. Some would argue the twist as well. It is too significant not to be included in the short program. Also it gives the teams two risk elements, before there was only 1. Lets face it, a team missing a twist or lift, or a spin, or another element, is a very small percentage of the time.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
slutskayafan21 said:
Also it gives the teams two risk elements, before there was only 1. Lets face it, a team missing a twist or lift, or a spin, or another element, is a very small percentage of the time.

Well, if they allowed the senior pairs to try triple twist in the short program instead of just double, you'd have another risk element right there and a lot more deductions, if not outright misses, on twists.

(And lucky for Elena Berezhnaya that change didn't come while she was competing, but it's bound to come one of these years.)
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
thisthingcalledlove said:
I remember, however, the daring throws that some pairs tried (not that any throw isn't daring...)

Quad Sal throw- Carruthers
Triple axel throw- Abitbol/Bernadis (98 Olys)

Two Russian pairs tried throw triple axel in the early 80's. IIRC the 1980 worlds (R&Z did not participate). They were Cherkeskaya-Shakarai (wrong on both spellings, I think) and Pestova-Leonov (he became G&G's coach later). Their 'throws' looked very strange though. They were so tiny that I had to watch the tape many times to convince myself it was not just a triple twist. Neither completed the throw 3A.

Vash
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
slutskayafan21 said:
Absolutely I agree. The triple twist should be allowable, if not mandatory, in the pairs short program.

If it is allowed (although not mandatory), some pairs will do it for extra points and make the competition more exciting. However, this move is so diffcult that there may be negative GOE's for almost everyone, unless the judges are being lenient.

I also agree that the throw jump should be (and it is now!- what took them so long?) mandatory in the pairs SP. Quite often if a pair landed the sbs triples cleanly, they were home free, prior to the 1998-99 GP's.

Vash
 

icenut84

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
slutskayafan21 said:
Absolutely I agree. The triple twist should be allowable, if not mandatory, in the pairs short program.

I'm not sure. The triple is more difficult, granted, but I like that having a mandatory double in the short programme shows the difference in quality between the pairs - air time, delay, etc. When the Zhangs did their SP in 2003 Worlds, she didn't even pull in to rotate! That shows how much air time she had. And in SLC, Berezhnaya's twist in the SP had a beautiful delay to it that only S&Z came close to, iirc. If the triple was mandatory, doubles would become a thing of the past at the elite level, and with them the delay and hang time that the top skaters can perform.
 

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
I would like it if in pairs and singles, they would make all the skaters perform double (easier) elements like compulsories. That really is the only way you can tell the skaters with the great technique apart from the skaters with the so so technique. Mandate doubles and certain spins and let the skater vary the entrances to raise the difficulty of the element and show off sureness of execution. Right now you see a lot of poorly executed triple lutzes being placed above ladies with beautiful triple flips and I think that's wrong (this is the ladies event).
 

thisthingcalledlove

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 24, 2003
soogar said:
I would like it if in pairs and singles, they would make all the skaters perform double (easier) elements like compulsories. That really is the only way you can tell the skaters with the great technique apart from the skaters with the so so technique. Mandate doubles and certain spins and let the skater vary the entrances to raise the difficulty of the element and show off sureness of execution. Right now you see a lot of poorly executed triple lutzes being placed above ladies with beautiful triple flips and I think that's wrong (this is the ladies event).

But soogar, nowadays, in the ladies' SP, one can't tell a lutz from a flip!
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I agree with Soogar. I think technique is much more important than an extra air turn. If a skater or a team has excellent technique then it doesn't matter how acrobatic they make their program. A beautifully executed double lutz (no flip like lutz - I refuse to give it the name flutz) like all Dorothy Hamills jumps. Why is she so endearing? Because she is a beautiful skater with great technique.

In pairs, the throw jump, however the number of air turns, can not be better than a rapport between the two skaters. Think B&S. They would look good with a throw waltz jump.

There really isn't anything wrong in 'raising the bar' bu if it sacrifices the flow of the skating then it is wrong. I can not accept the struggle in getting to the Bielman position in spin or in spiral, especially if it is sloppy.

Too much credit is given for attempted tricks in figure skating which one does not see in gymnastics or diving. In those sports, the scoring is commensurate to what the athlete actually accomplished.

I can see gymnasts and divers being offered positions in Cirque du Soleil because of their technique. There is not one figure skater I would hire if I were a kingpin CdS.

Joe
 
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