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Thread: Sports Streaks

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisthingcalledlove
    LoL of course it still happens today! Example...

    Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, and...Lithuania get to send judges....that's four former Soviets...

    Israel, a country that normally has judges from other countries judging for it (most notable, Katalin Alpern of Hungary now judging for Israel, or, even better, Baiul's former coach, Korytek's father, judging for Israel), sends one judge... (that's five)

    And finally, Latvia, gets to send a judge...well, that's six...

    Yikes!
    Don't be cute. You know very well there's a HUGE difference in the uneven natiopnalistic judging panel from Henie's days versus today. The most obvious difference being that those countries you listed (while once part of one country) still have the option of sending their own skaters and giving generous judging to their own skaters. So the comparison is not exactly valid.

    I'm talking about the fact that you don't see judging panels today like the ones Henie enjoyed. If you want a hypothetical comparison in judging panels, it would look like this today (one example):

    USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, RUS, CAN

  2. #17
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skate Sandee
    Don't be cute. You know very well there's a HUGE difference in the uneven natiopnalistic judging panel from Henie's days versus today. The most obvious difference being that those countries you listed (while once part of one country) still have the option of sending their own skaters and giving generous judging to their own skaters. So the comparison is not exactly valid.

    I'm talking about the fact that you don't see judging panels today like the ones Henie enjoyed. If you want a hypothetical comparison in judging panels, it would look like this today (one example):

    USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, RUS, CAN
    Skate Sandee - I'm totally confused about the judging panels of Henie - 7 US Judges? One Russian in the 1930s under Stalin and no other Europeans - not even Norway? And why on earth would the USA push Sonia ahead of its own skaters?

    I can't help but think you are unhappy with Sonia Henie getting so much credit for promoting figure skating. Are there any other reasons than this unusual assembly of judges you have presented.?

    Joe
    Last edited by Joesitz; 05-12-2005 at 11:57 AM.

  3. #18
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    Joe, I don't think that's what Sandee is saying; she's saying that today's equivalent of those pannels would be 7 US judges.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptichka
    Joe, I don't think that's what Sandee is saying; she's saying that today's equivalent of those pannels would be 7 US judges.
    Pitchka - I understood that. I was just trying to be a smart alec. My original thought was to make a big ado about Joe Inman and Mme LeGougne as being so close, or any US judge and Jan Huffman.

    Joe

  5. #20
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    How ironic. Tiger Woods' record (listed in the article along with Michelle's) of making the cut in 142 straight tournaments, dating back to 1998, came to an end yesterday. He bogeyed the last hole and missed the cut at the Byron Nelson Classic yesterday. In another twist, it was Nelson who held the old record of 113.

    I guess this would correlate with Michelle's streak for making the podium in consequtive events. I wonder how many it was. Did her streak last from 1995 Worlds to 2005 Worlds?

    Mathman

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    How ironic. Tiger Woods' record (listed in the article along with Michelle's) of making the cut in 142 straight tournaments, dating back to 1998, came to an end yesterday. He bogeyed the last hole and missed the cut at the Byron Nelson Classic yesterday. In another twist, it was Nelson who held the old record of 113.

    I guess this would correlate with Michelle's streak for making the podium in consequtive events. I wonder how many it was. Did her streak last from 1995 Worlds to 2005 Worlds?

    Mathman
    Michelle didn't make the podium in 1995 Worlds -- she came in fourth. She had medaled at other events (including things like SA -- the GP didn't exist) but it was at the beginning of the '95/'96 season Skate America (or actually a pre-season cheesefests) that the formal streak began. She actually does hold the record for consecutive medals if only the number of events is counted -- Sonia Henie only had to do Nats, Worlds, Euros (the last six years of her career only) and an Olys every four years.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisthingcalledlove
    LoL of course it still happens today! Example...

    Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, and...Lithuania get to send judges....that's four former Soviets...

    Israel, a country that normally has judges from other countries judging for it (most notable, Katalin Alpern of Hungary now judging for Israel, or, even better, Baiul's former coach, Korytek's father, judging for Israel), sends one judge... (that's five)

    And finally, Latvia, gets to send a judge...well, that's six...

    Yikes!
    Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia are separate countries from Russia. You cannot count them as ONE country, just because once upon a time they were a part of one (USSR). Not all these countries are on friendly terms with Russia. They absolutely would not want to be a part of the USSR again, if it ever came to form again (Belarus could be the sole exception). Latvia is even a part of the European union (I think). The former soviets mean nothing. It is like saying that we count the USA, Canada, and other former colonies (or countries with ancestors from) of the UK as from the same country (England).

    The reason these countries get to send judges is that they have participants in the competition. Not allowing them to do so would be grossly unfair.

    Vash
    Last edited by Vash01; 05-15-2005 at 02:18 AM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia are separate countries from Russia. You cannot count them as ONE country, just because once upon a time they were a part of one (USSR). Not all these countries are on friendly terms with Russia. They absolutely would not want to be a part of the USSR again, if it ever came to form again (Belarus could be the sole exception). Latvia is even a part of the European union (I think). The former soviets mean nothing. It is like saying that we count the USA, Canada, and other former colonies (or countries with ancestors from) of the UK as from the same country (England).

    The reason these countries get to send judges is that they have participants in the competition. Not allowing them to do so would be grossly unfair.

    Vash
    Vash - We are aware of the rules of the game. Of course, these countries are entitled to send judges. We are talking about the advantage that Russia has in being represented in the panel of judges. In addition to those names posted by 'Thisthing' I listed the following:

    Armenia, Azerbaiyan, Bulgaria, Georgia, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan.
    It's the former Russians who went to these countries and remained. They brought figure skating to these states but they all are faithful to Mother Russia. Some of the natives of these countries are muslim. I doubt we will see any muslim names.

    What we are talking about is that the sheer number of Russians in various parts of western Russia and Siberia all of whom retain their pride to the mother country have a big advantage in the draw of judging the contests.

    I doubt any of the former British colonies would side with one another. While they have national pride, they are brought up very consciously of 'the best man should win'.

    I realize Russian skaters are very important to ex-patriot Russians wherever they are. There's nothing wrong with that. What is being pointed out is the advantage of having so many judges whose hearts are securely in Mother Russia, and Russian skaters MUST win (best man or not)

    We don't want to take away your gold medals. We just want to know the names and nationalities of all the judges and that includes the former British colonies.

    Joe
    Last edited by Joesitz; 05-15-2005 at 06:01 AM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia are separate countries from Russia. You cannot count them as ONE country, just because once upon a time they were a part of one (USSR). Not all these countries are on friendly terms with Russia. They absolutely would not want to be a part of the USSR again, if it ever came to form again (Belarus could be the sole exception). Latvia is even a part of the European union (I think). The former soviets mean nothing. It is like saying that we count the USA, Canada, and other former colonies (or countries with ancestors from) of the UK as from the same country (England).

    The reason these countries get to send judges is that they have participants in the competition. Not allowing them to do so would be grossly unfair.

    Vash
    Again, people are misunderstanding my post. I am merely saying that it is equivalent to what Norge did in the past (if I remember correctly, there were four Norwegian judges in a world championships, and they all voted for Sonja, and there was an uproar of sorts, which ended the multiple judges from one nation). Not only are the former Soviets loyal to Mother Russia (as Joe stated) but a great number of them tend to stick together. If I remember correctly, Korytek of Ukraine (now of Israel) and the RUssian judge were the ones caught playing footsies.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    Vash - We are aware of the rules of the game. Of course, these countries are entitled to send judges. We are talking about the advantage that Russia has in being represented in the panel of judges. In addition to those names posted by 'Thisthing' I listed the following:

    Armenia, Azerbaiyan, Bulgaria, Georgia, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan.
    It's the former Russians who went to these countries and remained. They brought figure skating to these states but they all are faithful to Mother Russia. Some of the natives of these countries are muslim. I doubt we will see any muslim names.

    What we are talking about is that the sheer number of Russians in various parts of western Russia and Siberia all of whom retain their pride to the mother country have a big advantage in the draw of judging the contests.

    I doubt any of the former British colonies would side with one another. While they have national pride, they are brought up very consciously of 'the best man should win'.

    I realize Russian skaters are very important to ex-patriot Russians wherever they are. There's nothing wrong with that. What is being pointed out is the advantage of having so many judges whose hearts are securely in Mother Russia, and Russian skaters MUST win (best man or not)

    We don't want to take away your gold medals. We just want to know the names and nationalities of all the judges and that includes the former British colonies.

    Joe
    Joe,

    What I am criticizing is the implication/assumption that judges from former USSR nations would place Russian skaters higher than non-Russians regardless of how anyone skates. It means any judge from that part of the world has no integrity whatsoever. OTOH there is an implication that the British-derived countries (or judges) are so full of integrity that they would only reward the better skaters. We have seen that is not always the case, in either group of judges. The fact is that the USSR invested in talented skaters which gave them the advantage over countries that did not. Even though that advantage is gone for over a decade, we still see the ripple effect of it, with skaters that are talented, hard working, and motivated, and take pride in their culture. Instead of pointing at the judges it is important to look at the skaters. Even though the number of top skaters is small, they still have a few highly talented and motivated skaters. I believe it is an insult to the great skaters of the past and the present to constantly point at the judges from the former USSR because you are ignoring some of the greatest names in figure skating by doing that. Europe does have many small nations and that gives them the advantage in the number of judges compared to the North Americans. That's life. If they were all corrupt, as the consensus here seems to be, we would not have seen Boitano, Yamaguchi, Hughes, and even Belbin-Agosto win any medals.

    I don't know the facts about Henie's times so I won't comment on the number of Norwegian judges on the panel. Several judges from Norway is not the same as several judges from FORMER USSR. I think unless the Russian skaters are left off the podium in every discipline, some people will continue to complain against any judge that was even remotely connected with Russia.

    Vash

  11. #26
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01
    Joe, What I am criticizing is the implication/assumption that judges from former USSR nations would place Russian skaters higher than non-Russians regardless of how anyone skates. It means any judge from that part of the world has no integrity whatsoever.
    Vash, I think Joe's point is that the only way to counter this implication/assumption on the part of many skating fans in the Western world, is to open up the judging process to public scrutiny. As long as the judging is done in secret, of course everyone will think the other guys are a bunch of crooks.

    There is no reason why there should be rumors, speculation and uncertainty on the question of whether or not there is a tendency for judges from former soviet republics to favor Russian and other eastern European skaters. If the scores and nationalities of the judges were made public, all we would have to do is look and see.

    Mathman
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-15-2005 at 01:54 PM.

  12. #27
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    Europe does have many small nations
    Don't know about the impression of corruption, but most skaters popularity seem to be consistent across almost all European countries, e.g. Weir is well liked over there.


    The author was talking about US sports streaks, not international streaks. Henie skated in an era of figures, con't know whether that is easier than an era of triple triple or not.

    OT, here is a cute picture of Big Kwan, Little Kwan and Awww.. Oh..
    Olivia

    http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/1966e...Wr6hCBhsdDYToE
    Last edited by gezando; 05-15-2005 at 03:10 PM.

  13. #28
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    What about Irina Rodnina, the Soviet pairs skater who won ten successive pairs World titles (1969-1978) and three successive Olympic pairs titles. She managed that feat with two partners as well - from 1969-1972 with Alexsei Ulanov, and from 1973-1980 with Aledsandr Zaitsev.

    I think that Katarina Witt's two successive Olympic gold medals was also very impressive. In those days, the singles skaters had to train and compete in three disciplines - the compulsory school figures, the short program, and the long program. It was a training grind of the first order.

    Michelle Kwan's nine US titles (and eight successive titles) is extraordinary. Her two Olympic medals and five World titles (plus World silver and bronze medals) is a testament to her consistency and excellence.

    IMHO, what really impresses me about the "modern" skaters who emassed a large number of titles is that they competed against a fairly large, highly trained number of skaters, quite a few of whom were certainly good enough to win. It wasn't a case of there being only one major figure skater. Even Katarina Witt lost her World title in 1986 to Debi Thomas of the US (although Witt regained her title the following year).

    IMHO, a Michelle Kwan is a far, far more impressive than a Tara Lipinski, who won her Olympic gold medal at the age of 15 and then quit the sport. I realize that part of this decision (if not the major part) was due to her injury, but she did not stick around to defend her World and/or Olympic titles.

    Sarah Hughes won her gold medal at Salt Lake, and she's gone from the competitive skating scene. No defending of this title, IMHO.

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